Totally agree. Not their decision to go to war. Coercion and lies. That's the point many are trying to make. The average Russian civilians are not to blame. It's Putin's foolishness. And he's supported by his minions and those countries either afraid of him or that want something from him. Again, the point of why a peace treaty with Russia is worthless. Hey, I'm right with you on the costs and the worry of getting further drawn in, but I personally don't see a good outcome without continuing to help support Ukraine.k-2 wrote: ↑Wed. Jun. 19, 2024 9:13 am I feel bad for the russia troops as well ,ill bet 99% of them are not really on board with this whole thing and would much rather be home with their families than killing people and being killed in Ukraine. All victims as well.
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-61607184
"The Russian soldiers refusing to fight in Ukraine"
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-61599932
"They've been in the army for three months. They've only held a gun once. They've only been to a firing range once. Most of the time they've been shovelling snow."
Russian youth tricked into service.
"They lied to my face," she told me. "First they lied that my sons weren't in Ukraine. Then they lied that they'd signed military contracts. Officers lied, sergeants lied.
Russian - Ukrainian War
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Being lied to, by every level from top politician to petty bureaucrat, is an old Russia tradition from the earliest days of communism. They make our politicians look like choir boys. They seemed to try to get away from it after the fall of the Soviet Union in 1991 (the days of glasnost), but when Putin and his other KGB buddies came to power, they regressed.k-2 wrote: ↑Wed. Jun. 19, 2024 9:13 am I feel bad for the russia troops as well ,ill bet 99% of them are not really on board with this whole thing and would much rather be home with their families than killing people and being killed in Ukraine. All victims as well.
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-61607184
"The Russian soldiers refusing to fight in Ukraine"
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-61599932
"They've been in the army for three months. They've only held a gun once. They've only been to a firing range once. Most of the time they've been shovelling snow."
Russian youth tricked into service.
"They lied to my face," she told me. "First they lied that my sons weren't in Ukraine. Then they lied that they'd signed military contracts. Officers lied, sergeants lied.
Paul
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Appeasement is not peace it is just a delay of more war. Not once in history that appeasement was tried did it stop a madman like Putin. And any "peace agreement" that allows Putin to steal parts of other countries is appeasement.waytomany?s wrote: ↑Wed. Jun. 19, 2024 10:24 am Totally agree. Not their decision to go to war. Coercion and lies. That's the point many are trying to make. The average Russian civilians are not to blame. It's Putin's foolishness. And he's supported by his minions and those countries either afraid of him or that want something from him. Again, the point of why a peace treaty with Russia is worthless. Hey, I'm right with you on the costs and the worry of getting further drawn in, but I personally don't see a good outcome without continuing to help support Ukraine.
How many agreements and treaties have to be broken and how many invasions have to happen before those crying peace wake up to the historically proven reality that not standing up to madmen like Putin will never bring lasting peace.
Putin has been using Hitler's and Stalin's play books from the very beginning knowing that all of the Lenin's useful idiots don't bother to learn from history.
Paul
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Exactly.waytomany?s wrote: ↑Wed. Jun. 19, 2024 6:41 am They are playing the heck out of that game. Yeah,sure, we'll take more gas, but you have to build the pipeline and we want a 40% discount.
Russia lost their big European gas cash-cow by invading Ukraine. They are now left with bargain hunter customers and so much loss of government supporting revenue that their big state-owned gas company Gazprom is going broke.
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I dont see a good outcome either way. The best scenario is for the russian citizens to revolt ,but they know what and has happened to them if they do. Perhaps we should be helping them covertly.waytomany?s wrote: ↑Wed. Jun. 19, 2024 10:24 am Hey, I'm right with you on the costs and the worry of getting further drawn in, but I personally don't see a good outcome without continuing to help support Ukraine.
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+2waytomany?s wrote: ↑Wed. Jun. 19, 2024 11:13 am Actually, after you said that, I agree. There won't be a "good" outcome. That's long gone. There will be a better vs worse outcome, although there may not be a large amount of middle ground.
Yup, as I said there are no winners in wars - when the fighting ends some just lose more than others. Take a walk through any military cemetery and you'll see the truth of that.
Some people have to use the words "win", but it just shows how removed they are from the realty of war.
Paul
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For anyone that needs further proof of what a madman old Vlad is,.... he buys weapons from and then signs a mutual defense agreement with another communist madman, little Kim of North Korea. Then threatens South Korea if they send weapons to help Ukraine.
And some are deluded into thinking a "peace agreement" can be worked out with this maniac !
https://www.yahoo.com/news/putin-says-south-korea ... 06967.html
Paul
And some are deluded into thinking a "peace agreement" can be worked out with this maniac !
https://www.yahoo.com/news/putin-says-south-korea ... 06967.html
Paul
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So now he is aligned with the pariah of the world, someone despised even more than him. There is a story that to consolidate power Kim purged anybody that could challenge him including killing an Uncle with an anti-aircraft gun. Presumably they sponged him up for the burial. He also assassinated his half Brother at an airport with poison.
That's some fine company to keep. Perhaps him and Putin were exchanging torture methods they preferred for political opponents?
That's some fine company to keep. Perhaps him and Putin were exchanging torture methods they preferred for political opponents?
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I was hoping someone would shoot putins plane down or derail the train, whatever method he used to get to NK. Just a happy thought, made me smile, then it didnt happen....
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And some think that Ukraine is the problem, not Russia, only because our government supports Ukraine.Richard S. wrote: ↑Thu. Jun. 20, 2024 5:18 pm So now he is aligned with the pariah of the world, someone despised even more than him. There is a story that to consolidate power Kim purged anybody that could challenge him including killing an Uncle with an anti-aircraft gun. Presumably they sponged him up for the burial. He also assassinated his half Brother at an airport with poison.
That's some fine company to keep. Perhaps him and Putin were exchanging torture methods they preferred for political opponents?
Paul
Senators Paul, Lee Introduce Resolution Condemning the Biden Administration's Unconstitutional Security Guarantees to Ukraine
WASHINGTON, D.C. – Yesterday, Senators Rand Paul (R-KY) and Mike Lee (R-UT) introduced a resolution emphasizing the need for Senate oversight and consideration of the Biden administration's bilateral agreement to provide long-term security guarantees to Ukraine. This agreement, which effectively serves as a backdoor into NATO membership for Ukraine, bypasses Congress and the Constitution by not following the treaty process and restricts future administrations from adjusting the United States' strategic posture toward Ukraine.
"President Biden's bilateral security agreement with Ukraine commits America to yet another endless war. This deal risks entrapping future administrations to a prolonged military engagement without a clear exit strategy or sufficient burden-sharing from our European allies. We must prioritize American interests and avoid endless foreign entanglements," said Dr. Rand Paul.
"The Biden administration's decision to sidestep the Constitution and the Senate's role in treaty ratification is unacceptable," said Senator Lee. "This agreement not only circumvents the Constitution but also ties the hands of future administrations. Such significant commitments must be subject to thorough scrutiny by the Senate."
The Senators' resolution makes it clear that the Senate must have the opportunity to review the agreement as a treaty through the constitutionally mandated advice and consent process. This ensures that the Constitution is upheld and that the long-term strategic implications for the United States are carefully considered.
https://www.paul.senate.gov/wp-content/uploads/20 ... kraine.pdf
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Not defending Biden, but how is an "agreement" become a "treaty". They are two separate things in the diplomatic world and those Senators should very well know that.
Ukraine had both an agreement, plus treaties with Russia and Putin broke them all.
The "Minsk Agreements" are just that, and not called treaties. There were two "treaties" that came later in addition to the Minsk Agreement.
Paul
Ukraine had both an agreement, plus treaties with Russia and Putin broke them all.
The "Minsk Agreements" are just that, and not called treaties. There were two "treaties" that came later in addition to the Minsk Agreement.
Paul
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You have to wonder why an administration is so hell bent on printing and borrowing us into ruin to shovel billions of $ into a non nato country. Is it the millions Hunter and the Biden family got from Ukraine through 20 shell companies? If so thats the definition of treason.
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Any agreement with another country state by definition is a treaty. The Senate has abdicated their responsibility going back to the 1800's in smaller matters because it's just not workable hence "Executive agreements". I guess the problem here is drawing a line for what is a big deal.
https://guides.ll.georgetown.edu/c.php?g=365734&p=3644814