NFPA 211: Issues switching stoves caused by code requirements

Post Reply
Hoytman
Missed and Always Remembered
Posts: 6110
Joined: Wed. Jan. 18, 2017 11:30 pm
Location: swOH near a little town where the homes are mobile and the cars aren’t
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Hitzer 354
Coal Size/Type: nut coal
Other Heating: electric, wood, oil
  • Quote

Post by Hoytman »

Every single professional chimney sweep I’ve spoken to in person, several, and several on Internet forums as well, are all adamant about “the stove pipe must latch the stove breech according to NFPA 211, which is correct…caveat that they forget to tell you about…it’s correct for “optimal performance “, aka optimal draft.

NFPA 211 recommends using the same size as the stove breech while at the same time deferring to the “manufacturer’s recommendations”. Now get this…if you dig deeper into 211 you will find that not only do they defer to the “manufacturers recommendations” they also say that it is legal to upsize or downsize your stove pipe and/or chimney liner by 1”. They make you dig a little more to find that information on youth for some reason. The kicker for me is that not a single chimney sweep I’ve spoken to will admit to being able to upsize or downsize by 1” when you call them on it.

I personally feel that they not only allowed this confusion but wrote it that way because they don’t won’t to totally be on the hook for anything that could be a “design” problem from any manufacturer….yet they want you to believe that the 211 rules are the supreme law of the land…that is except where they defer to the manufacturer recommendations. Which I think this passing of the buck is BS. My opinion is they are either the governing body or they aren’t.

Let me give you an example of what their BS causes. It cause a lot of people that I spend needless money to be compliant with their code.

Let’s say a person just 3 years ago had a newer stove installed with an 8” stove breech. Two models that have been made within the last 3 years or is still made would be the Blaze King King model wood stove and the Kuma Sequoia wood stove…both 8” stove breech. So you buy one of those stoves and you have a brand new 8” Class A double or triple wall insulated chimney installed through you ceiling or outside the house.

Let’s say you decide to remodel and your current stove won’t match your newly designed decor, or you simply use the stove 3 years and have decided you don’t like the stove and you have settled on chosen a new stove to install. The only problem is (if you want/need to comply with the 211 code) that your newly chosen wood stove has a 6 inch breech. That’s now a full 2 inches smaller than your 8” chimney you just installed 3 years ago. Stay with me…writing this takes longer than simply saying it.

Now you must also rip out a relatively new Class A chimney and install a “matching” sized chimney…matching the stove breech. Take note that this will provide your optimal (best) draft. A chimney sweep that installs your chimney will insist on a matching sized new Class A chimney.

Also take note that you could install install the way more expensive Class A 7” chimney and still meet that code…but exactly no one but me will tell you that. Remember? The code also allows for +/-1” variance from the stove breech…but a professional chimney sweep will argue with you until he is blue in the face about that and they will insist on a new 6” chimney and stove pipe to match your new stove.

Now consider this…
You are looking at your 3 year old 8” Class A chimney and the thought of tearing it out is killing you. After all, you spent a couple thousand dollars on it. Then you have an aha! moment and say to yourself…hmmnnn…what about installing a 6” rigid SS chimney liner inside of your Class A. It should work, right? After all, instead of your 3 year old relatively new Class A chimney having a 1” of insulation around it now by installing a 6” rigid liner inside of it it will now have even more insulation via a 1” air gap around it. A stainless steel liner with a 1” insulating air gap around it inside of an 8” Class A stainless steel chimney. Heck…now your chimney is super insulated, right? WRONG! 211 will not allow deviation (over-building or extra insulating of your chimney) from the code because it has NOT been tested…which someone would need to pay $50,000.00 to $100,000.00 to prove or disprove it working.

We all know that a stainless liner inside with an air gap inside of of a Class A chimney would not hurt a darn thing. It could be accomplished and work very well, but the governing body would not approve it.

I personally feel even a flex liner would work, but a rigid liner would be easier to maintain the 1” gap inside your Class A. Neither are legal according to code.

Now…the only point in doing such a thing, obviously, would be two reasons:

1. Someone hating to rip out a chimney they had just recently installed.

2. Once you commit to installing a 6” chimney you could never switch back to a different stove with an 8” breech without ripping out yet another chimney you paid for. Which brings me to this…

Regardless of a stoves actual breech size and a manufacturer’s recommendation (which would be to match the solstices breech) the code DOES allow for a +/-1” variance of +/-1”.

People could simplify life…and the governing body could tell you this but they won’t…just by building and/or installing a 7” chimney. You could put in a 7” chimney and never have to spend another time whether your change stoves/breech sizes , or not. Then there is no worry about what stove you buy or what size breech it has, switching stoves wouldn’t be an issue or cost any more money, and a pro chimney sweep couldn’t screw with you telling you you need to meet this or that code…all costing you more money. It’s a money racket as far as I am concerned…in the name of safety, so of course you need them to look out for you.

Either people getting smart and installing a 7” chimney using the codes own words to simplify life…

…or the code being changed to make a 7” chimney the “standard” size to accommodate the codes own wording…which then would make every stove user “in the middle” of that +/-1” variance….and then manufacturers could build their stove 6”-8” and no one would ever have to change their chimney…except to insulate it.

What’s your thoughts on “standardizing” to 7” for new installs?

What’s your thoughts on existing codes, the confusion it causes regarding changing stoves and possibly chimneys every time you change a stove, and what is your thoughts on the money it costs people?

User avatar
davidmcbeth3
Member
Posts: 8475
Joined: Sun. Jun. 14, 2009 2:31 pm
Coal Size/Type: nut/pea/anthra
  • Quote

Post by davidmcbeth3 »

I don't think these codes are available online. Yes? Have link ?

Hoytman
Missed and Always Remembered
Posts: 6110
Joined: Wed. Jan. 18, 2017 11:30 pm
Location: swOH near a little town where the homes are mobile and the cars aren’t
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Hitzer 354
Coal Size/Type: nut coal
Other Heating: electric, wood, oil
  • Quote

Post by Hoytman »

davidmcbeth3 wrote: Sun. Jan. 15, 2023 1:13 pm I don't think these codes are available online. Yes? Have link ?
Yes. No. Just have to Google it. I can’t do all the work for you. :lol: Kidding of course. I’d have to look it up again myself. I might also add that NFPA 211 supposed to be the final word on installs. However, from my own research and experience I can tell you first hand that your states “Revised Code” website will likely enlighten you as well to what you can actually do.

Example:
Some use the 211 code to say that “the code says” if you rip out a clay liner then the “code says” (according to many pro chimney sweeps) you’re not allowed to replace your clay liner with clay. They will likely tell you, as I have been told by them, that your clay must be replaced with Stainless Steel…which according to my research is totally false.

The same pro’s who tried to Buffalo me tried to tell me clay liners are no longer allowed in new construction. I researched it. Not only did I find that to be false from 211 code, but my own states revised code indicated that to be false as well, as did conversation with local stove dealers and a few phone calls to clay liner manufacturers who laughed at what I was told.

You have to watch these pro’s. They won’t tell you everything and some will purposely misinform you.

Bottom line…do your own due diligence and don’t take someone’s word for the gospel, not even mine.

User avatar
davidmcbeth3
Member
Posts: 8475
Joined: Sun. Jun. 14, 2009 2:31 pm
Coal Size/Type: nut/pea/anthra
  • Quote

Post by davidmcbeth3 »

Hoytman wrote: Sun. Jan. 15, 2023 2:03 pm Yes. No. Just have to Google it. I can’t do all the work for you.
kek

Attachments

Legend:
Download File
File Information
File Comment
Copy [BBcode] to Clipboard
Capture 15 dollar.JPG

Capture 15 dollar.JPG



Hoytman
Missed and Always Remembered
Posts: 6110
Joined: Wed. Jan. 18, 2017 11:30 pm
Location: swOH near a little town where the homes are mobile and the cars aren’t
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Hitzer 354
Coal Size/Type: nut coal
Other Heating: electric, wood, oil
  • Quote

Post by Hoytman »

davidmcbeth3 wrote: Sun. Jan. 15, 2023 2:10 pmkek
Hey…you had me googling what “kek” means the other day, so I owe you one.

Just last night my son was laughing at me for using the word “emoticon”. He politely informed me that was a “computer” hold over word from days gone by…the precursor to the more modern word used for computers and cell phones, “emoji”. :roll:

As far as relevance of the times with that meme, you can post it a 2nd time. That buffoon. :lol:

User avatar
davidmcbeth3
Member
Posts: 8475
Joined: Sun. Jun. 14, 2009 2:31 pm
Coal Size/Type: nut/pea/anthra
  • Quote

Post by davidmcbeth3 »

Hoytman wrote: Sun. Jan. 15, 2023 2:17 pm

Just last night my son was laughing at me for using the word “emoticon”.
"Hahahaha good one son. There's the door."

Hoytman
Missed and Always Remembered
Posts: 6110
Joined: Wed. Jan. 18, 2017 11:30 pm
Location: swOH near a little town where the homes are mobile and the cars aren’t
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Hitzer 354
Coal Size/Type: nut coal
Other Heating: electric, wood, oil
  • Quote

Post by Hoytman »

davidmcbeth3 wrote: Sun. Jan. 15, 2023 2:29 pm "Hahahaha good one son. There's the door."
With a foot of encouragement. :lol:

Post Reply

Return to “Coal Bins, Chimneys, CO Detectors & Thermostats”