Cookin' With Coal

 
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Sunny Boy
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Posts: 20963
Joined: Mon. Nov. 11, 2013 1:40 pm
Location: Central NY
Hand Fed Coal Boiler: Anthracite Industrial, domestic hot water heater
Baseburners & Antiques: Glenwood range 208, # 6 base heater, 2 Modern Oak 118.
Coal Size/Type: Nuts !
Other Heating: Oil &electric plenum furnace

Post by Sunny Boy » Thu. Jun. 18, 2020 2:51 pm

gardener wrote:
Thu. Jun. 18, 2020 1:43 pm
I saw this '60s Coleman camping oven for sale.
Is this somehow different than a stove top oven?
I don't recall as many vents on a stove top oven, actually the only venting I recall was the loose seams.
Do any of you use stove top ovens when cooking with your coal stoves?

camping_stove.jpg
They still sell them. No one I know uses one with a range.

Meant to be used on top of a wood or camping stove that does not have an oven. They may not fit well on a range because most have a mantel shelf sticking out over the cook top that may not be high enough to clear the oven so it can sit all the way on the cooktop. Plus ranges already have an oven - some even have two ovens.

And because some ranges vent the oven into the lower pressure area of the range flues, plus, it's the range's oven walls providing the heat source, there is no need to clean the range oven from baking/broiling vapor condensing on the oven walls like it does with modern ovens. In 15 seasons, 9 months long, and doing a lot of baking, I've never had to clean the oven of my range. We just leave a half sheet baking pan on the oven floor to catch any accidental overflow spills.

Paul


 
Hoytman
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Posts: 1981
Joined: Wed. Jan. 18, 2017 11:30 pm
Location: swOH near a little town where the homes are mobile and the cars aren’t
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Hitzer 354
Coal Size/Type: nut coal
Other Heating: electric, wood, oil

Post by Hoytman » Fri. Jul. 31, 2020 11:56 pm


 
Hoytman
Member
Posts: 1981
Joined: Wed. Jan. 18, 2017 11:30 pm
Location: swOH near a little town where the homes are mobile and the cars aren’t
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Hitzer 354
Coal Size/Type: nut coal
Other Heating: electric, wood, oil

Post by Hoytman » Fri. Jul. 31, 2020 11:59 pm

What do you think about this, Paul? Not sure if they offer the coal grate option or not on their smaller stoves. I bet they’d build whatever you wanted. I heard their made from 1/4” plate. Those look like DSM grates to me and likely are since that is their regulator option offered as well.

 
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Sunny Boy
Member
Posts: 20963
Joined: Mon. Nov. 11, 2013 1:40 pm
Location: Central NY
Hand Fed Coal Boiler: Anthracite Industrial, domestic hot water heater
Baseburners & Antiques: Glenwood range 208, # 6 base heater, 2 Modern Oak 118.
Coal Size/Type: Nuts !
Other Heating: Oil &electric plenum furnace

Post by Sunny Boy » Sat. Aug. 01, 2020 6:45 am

Do you mean the Summer plate, or those rocker grates?

I wouldn't trust that plate to last, unsupported like that. Typically a Summer plate in a coal range sits right on top of the coal grates.

Those rocker grates are not the best for coal. They'll need additional work with slicing to help clear ash. And then, without a clinker door like the antiques, how do you get a slicing bar in at the grate level ? This is what I mean by coal stoves built by wood burners. They don't know what was figured out long ago to work best for coal.

Paul

 
Coaly
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Joined: Sat. Jan. 02, 2010 2:55 pm
Location: NE PA, Monroe County
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Hopper Fed Hitzer EZ Flo
Baseburners & Antiques: Many, including most all Fisher models
Coal Size/Type: Chestnut / hard
Other Heating: Kitchen Queen 480
Contact:

Post by Coaly » Sat. Aug. 01, 2020 11:11 am

I use stove top ovens on a Kitchen Queen when more oven pace is needed. I have a Griswold BOLO (Big Oven / Little Oven) and a new stainless PE (Pacific Energy) stove top oven with glass. When not in use, they are used for bread boxes.

 
Hoytman
Member
Posts: 1981
Joined: Wed. Jan. 18, 2017 11:30 pm
Location: swOH near a little town where the homes are mobile and the cars aren’t
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Hitzer 354
Coal Size/Type: nut coal
Other Heating: electric, wood, oil

Post by Hoytman » Sat. Aug. 01, 2020 5:12 pm

Coaly wrote:
Sat. Aug. 01, 2020 11:11 am
I use stove top ovens on a Kitchen Queen when more oven pace is needed. I have a Griswold BOLO (Big Oven / Little Oven) and a new stainless PE (Pacific Energy) stove top oven with glass. When not in use, they are used for bread boxes.
Welcome Paul!!!! I had no idea you were a member here. I appreciate you considering my invitation to join us here on the coalpail forum and in this thread.

Now we have 2 Paul’s with cook stove knowledge. Awesome!!!

For those that may or may not know, Coaly has quite the extensive knowledge of Fisher wood stoves and has posted a tremendous amount of historical information about Bob Fisher the man, Fisher stoves, and the Fisher wood stove history, and he’s posted all that information over on hearth.com for anyone to read. There’s even a dedicated Fisher sub-forum you might say, and it’s quite extensive.

If I understand correctly, Coaly also has quite a bit of historical knowledge and working knowledge of other wood, antique, and cook stoves and has even contributed to at least one design tweak of the Kitchen Queen cook stove sold today. I had been looking at the KQ wood cook stoves online yesterday and didn’t even realize they offered a coal grate option until then.

Paul, I want to thank you for joining us here and I sure hope you will consider being more active with us in the future. There is great group of knowledgeable and friendly folks here and quite a few collectors that I’m sure you’ll have a common bond with.

Lots of great stove talk here and technical information from many of the members here.

Occasionally there is a forum get-together and I’ve had the privilege of meeting some really nice and passionate stove people.

Glad you could join us, Paul!

 
Coaly
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Posts: 18
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Location: NE PA, Monroe County
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Hopper Fed Hitzer EZ Flo
Baseburners & Antiques: Many, including most all Fisher models
Coal Size/Type: Chestnut / hard
Other Heating: Kitchen Queen 480
Contact:

Post by Coaly » Sat. Aug. 01, 2020 9:57 pm

Sunny Boy wrote:
Sat. Aug. 01, 2020 6:45 am
Do you mean the Summer plate, or those rocker grates?

I wouldn't trust that plate to last, unsupported like that. Typically a Summer plate in a coal range sits right on top of the coal grates.

Those rocker grates are not the best for coal. They'll need additional work with slicing to help clear ash. And then, without a clinker door like the antiques, how do you get a slicing bar in at the grate level ? This is what I mean by coal stoves built by wood burners. They don't know what was figured out long ago to work best for coal.

Paul
The support for the summer grate is a half inch rod that folds to get it in the firebox and swings down like a post on the right and folds outward until it hits the frame not allowing the leg to move any farther upward, like a lever at the end of the swing. It doesn't heat up underneath to deform the legs and sits very firm. They are high to build a small fire with kindling just below the stove top. I light mine with the chimney bypass open and cook quickly over open eye and open bypass when done to allow excess heat right out. The new firebox with secondary channels uses a 3 point attachment and the frame is very robust. The spacing between bars for wood ash is perfect. You want it to clog easy, or clean easy, which it does. One of the best things about the stove actually. If you let the slots fill with ash, by not raking ash through the wood grate, it is like burning on a solid bottom wood stove increasing burn duration. You get a coal bed and normal loading knocks a slight amount of ash through without giving it too much air. If you rake a little across the grate in spots for air, it is just right for oven use. Too much raking and you will have too much air coming up through fire with thermostat open. This is fine heating a large area like 2500 or 3000 sf, but for most heating, leaving a bed of ash form on the grate works best for me. That uses the front intake for primary air since the t-stat only allows air under the grate. Coals form without falling through which defeats the purpose of a longer burn. (This is in reference to wood grate obviously) As long as you burn 24/7 and load before you need kindling, clogged grates are best. If you need to restart with kindling from coals, rake a few clean holes through and the under air lights it up instantly.

Even though the KQ was designed originally for wood, it was very easy giving it an intake below the grate for coal. The lined firebox is no different than a Hitzer, and the coal grate is very similar. I installed a Hitzer bi-metal thermostat on mine at the rear which is the same place the builder was adding them for Amish households before it was tested by UL. It is actually easier to add your own through the ash door, like a Condor bimetal thermostat or simply use a Fisher style intake damper on the ash pan door for manual control. Without it, expect much slower starts since the only air is through loading door, not through fire.

I also used Gibraltar grates that to me are the best grate system I've used. Not as easy to go too far and jam. If it does, stuck pieces tend to burn out quicker and the gear crushing action gets the moving again easier than flat grates. Once coal grates are installed with the under air thermostat, there is nothing different in the firebox than a stove designed for coal. It isn't like a wood stove converted for coal.


 
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Sunny Boy
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Posts: 20963
Joined: Mon. Nov. 11, 2013 1:40 pm
Location: Central NY
Hand Fed Coal Boiler: Anthracite Industrial, domestic hot water heater
Baseburners & Antiques: Glenwood range 208, # 6 base heater, 2 Modern Oak 118.
Coal Size/Type: Nuts !
Other Heating: Oil &electric plenum furnace

Post by Sunny Boy » Sun. Aug. 02, 2020 8:40 am

Thanks Coaly. I've never seen that type Summer plate explained that well. Makes sense now.

Are the coal grates able to be rotated to break up clinkers and also even out surface heat-stress and wear, like early range triangular, duplex, or Dockash, type coal grates do ?

Paul

 
Hoytman
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Posts: 1981
Joined: Wed. Jan. 18, 2017 11:30 pm
Location: swOH near a little town where the homes are mobile and the cars aren’t
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Hitzer 354
Coal Size/Type: nut coal
Other Heating: electric, wood, oil

Post by Hoytman » Sun. Aug. 02, 2020 9:51 am

Sunny Boy wrote:
Sun. Aug. 02, 2020 8:40 am
Thanks Coaly. I've never seen that type Summer plate explained that well. Makes sense now.

Are the coal grates able to be rotated to break up clinkers and also even out surface heat-stress and wear, like early range triangular, duplex, or Dockash, type coal grates do ?

Paul
I can’t answer for Coaly, but when I was looking around on KQ website I did see a shaker handle I believe either in the back or side of the stove. I forget now.

 
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Sunny Boy
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Posts: 20963
Joined: Mon. Nov. 11, 2013 1:40 pm
Location: Central NY
Hand Fed Coal Boiler: Anthracite Industrial, domestic hot water heater
Baseburners & Antiques: Glenwood range 208, # 6 base heater, 2 Modern Oak 118.
Coal Size/Type: Nuts !
Other Heating: Oil &electric plenum furnace

Post by Sunny Boy » Sun. Aug. 02, 2020 10:23 am

Bill,
Shaker yes. But can those grates be rotated to not only grind-up and dump clinkers, to also use the other surface to even out heat stress that can eventually warp the grates ?

That is something I don't see that any of the modern wood stoves that are being sold as coal stoves too, have.

Ranges with coal grates often had instructions about ability to daily rotate them so that clinkers - that don't get broken up by just shaking - could be broken up before they become harder and larger. Some of the guys with stoves that have the same looking grates as the picture have to use a slicing bar, such as Lightning Lee had made. Many of the antique parlor stoves had a "clinker door" at the same height as the top of the grates to be able to slide a tool in across the top of the grates to grind up clinkers.

I don't see that the modern ranges have either of those abilities.

I put up with a few years of only being able to just shake and not rotate the warped grates in my range. The previous owner only burned wood on those coal grates without a wood plate, and he never rotated them so all that heat stress on one side warped the grates. I finally got fed up with fighting to clear clinkers and had new triangular grates cast so that they work like Glenwood meant. The difference in ease of operation and stove performance is amazing. So much so that I would never own a stove that I could not rotate the grates.

I run my range hard about 9 months of the year, 24/7. After many years, thanks to rotating them 120 degrees every morning, those recast triangular grates are still as straight, and the raised part numbers are still as crisp detail, as the day I installed them. And I don't get the slow reduction of heat output as the bottom of the firebed fills up with clinkers that required shutting down the range about every two weeks, clean out the clinkers, and restart the stove. Especially troublesome during bitter cold weather when I need that heat.

Paul

 
Hoytman
Member
Posts: 1981
Joined: Wed. Jan. 18, 2017 11:30 pm
Location: swOH near a little town where the homes are mobile and the cars aren’t
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Hitzer 354
Coal Size/Type: nut coal
Other Heating: electric, wood, oil

Post by Hoytman » Sun. Aug. 02, 2020 12:11 pm

Paul, I think you know the answer to that. At least my assumption is no they cannot be rotated.Maybe I am wrong. I’m sure Coaly knows. They look similar to Harmon or even more like DS grates to me. Being Amish, I’m leaning towards DS being they’re not totally flat like the Hitzer grates are.

I’m not sure if they are a standard grate lengthy or longer, which to me they appear longer. Wouldn’t leaving a little ash on them protect them some? Seems I’ve seen...at least in regular antique stoves...photo’s of warped triangular grates, but perhaps they were thinner than some of the better built stoves. I see what you’re getting at, but it doesn’t seem anyone offers those type of grates in a modern stove or any kind. I also agree that the Gibraltor/Glacier Bay grates are the best for flat style grates.

Only issue for me with an antique stove is if you don’t already have a working knowledge of them then finding a good tutorial video or brochure is unlikely for the many models out there...and then there’s which designs are best, which are built to last, ease of parts availability, and most of those better old stoves in the east coast. Not that big a deal if you want to take a 3 day trip or a week and visit stove shops. Quite different than driving to a local stove shop or one a few hours away. I get it, it’s all in what a person wants to do. For me, there’s local Amish communities and Lehman’s within 3 hours or less. Good luck seeing an older cook stoves or finding coal cook stoves at those places.

Only burned coal in the Hitzer two months and thankfully haven’t had any clinker issues. I wonder if it’s because the stove is so big I don’t have to burn hard?

I’m sure those triangular grates could be used but maybe there’s not been much considered about them in modern cook stoves or maybe not enough interest. I’m not so sure (not having experienced either) that if given the option of a triangular grate or a Gibraltor style grate if the Gibraltor style would be better since they’re so heavy built. I don’t know. I suppose the sky is the limit as to how a modern stove could be built if there was enough input and interest. On the KQ I’d like to see more removable plates within plates. Forgot what the correct term for them is.

 
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Sunny Boy
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Posts: 20963
Joined: Mon. Nov. 11, 2013 1:40 pm
Location: Central NY
Hand Fed Coal Boiler: Anthracite Industrial, domestic hot water heater
Baseburners & Antiques: Glenwood range 208, # 6 base heater, 2 Modern Oak 118.
Coal Size/Type: Nuts !
Other Heating: Oil &electric plenum furnace

Post by Sunny Boy » Sun. Aug. 02, 2020 12:26 pm

Everything anyone would needed to know about antique ranges to help make a choice, has been covered in this Cookin With Coal thread, and by the other internet site dedicated to wood ranges (both antique and modern) also mentioned and linked to in this thread.

If you mean the cooktop round covers, the "plates within plates" type round covers are called ring covers.

Paul

 
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D.lapan
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Coal Size/Type: nut, stove

Post by D.lapan » Wed. Sep. 02, 2020 7:02 pm

Thought I would share my once in a lifetime find.

This is a 1930s glenwood home grand 308 “3rd series 8” lids” this was one the flagships of glenwoods line of ranges The other being the gold medal.

This is one of only 2 ever seen by any of the restorers in New England and I’ve called them all, bob brunell had one in the 70s and he mentioned that employees of glenwood could enamel anything they wanted and that these 2 were likely the result.
This was in the dry basement of a house in Salem New Hampshire, covered in Sheetrock dust and Cobb Webbs, it was converted to kerosene when it was new and had the original ash pan, tools and glenwoods special ordered “magic” grates. My 10 year old and I took every nut and bolt off this with a screwdriver and a wrench everything was finger tight, by far the nicest stove I’ve ever seen.

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Sunny Boy
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Posts: 20963
Joined: Mon. Nov. 11, 2013 1:40 pm
Location: Central NY
Hand Fed Coal Boiler: Anthracite Industrial, domestic hot water heater
Baseburners & Antiques: Glenwood range 208, # 6 base heater, 2 Modern Oak 118.
Coal Size/Type: Nuts !
Other Heating: Oil &electric plenum furnace

Post by Sunny Boy » Wed. Sep. 02, 2020 8:05 pm

Even sideways it's a beauty. What an incredibly lucky find !!!!!!

Since your a standup guy I took the liberty of standing up your stove picture, but for some reason it fell over the other way. :lol: We need photographer Randy to fix it.

Looking at the shape and the single pivot, can I assume that Magic grate is for wood ?

Paul

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D.lapan
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Location: plainfield NH
Hand Fed Coal Furnace: newmac wood,coal,oil como
Baseburners & Antiques: 20th century laurel, glenwood hickory,crawford fairy
Coal Size/Type: nut, stove

Post by D.lapan » Wed. Sep. 02, 2020 8:08 pm

Sunny Boy wrote:
Wed. Sep. 02, 2020 8:05 pm
Even sideways it's a beauty. What an incredibly lucky find !!!!!!

Since your a standup guy I took the liberty of standing up your stove. :D

Looking at the shape, can I assume that Magic grate is for wood ?

Actually no it’s in the sales brochure are as a coal grate but I can’t imagine it worked well with coal
Dana

Paul

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