Alternative Vehicle fuels and Coal gas My new Cng and propane f150's

 
wnycoalier
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Post by wnycoalier » Mon. Sep. 23, 2019 8:09 pm

Recently got a Propane/Gasoline F150 2001 and a 2004 CNG truck . Both are southern trucks with low miles. I can get propane for 1.50 a gallon or $2.00 a gge ( $1.20 over the Commodity spot price) CNG is $1.60 a gge (gasoline gallon equivalent. )
Looking at the calculator for BTU's I am still burning very expensive hydrogen compared to solid hydrogen (Anthracite) Has anyone seen a good example of someone who had even small scale gassification?

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Post by McGiever » Mon. Sep. 23, 2019 9:49 pm

Solid hydrogen???...You mean solid carbon, don''t you??? ;)

 
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Post by wnycoalier » Tue. Sep. 24, 2019 11:10 am

"You mean solid carbon, don''t you???" We aren't burning carbon. We burn hydrogen with oxygen to produce heat. Since our hydrogen is glued together with carbon. We heat coal to release the carbon/hydrogen bond with some of that carbon is also combined with oxygen to make co/co2. If we have any science minded people who can weigh in if my understanding is correct I'd like to know. Toyota currently is selling a pure hydrogen car, catch is hydrogen is $16.95$ a gge. https://www.toyotasantamonica.com/hydrogen-fuel-cost/

 
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Post by freetown fred » Tue. Sep. 24, 2019 11:11 am

We were runnin propane pick ups back in the 70's up in Vt. Nothin new here! Then reg. gas prices dropped big time.

 
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Post by McGiever » Tue. Sep. 24, 2019 11:40 am

Nobody here has ever seen solid hydrogen.:)

 
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Post by Lightning » Tue. Sep. 24, 2019 12:50 pm

wnycoalier wrote:
Tue. Sep. 24, 2019 11:10 am
We aren't burning carbon. We burn hydrogen with oxygen to produce heat. Since our hydrogen is glued together with carbon. We heat coal to release the carbon/hydrogen bond with some of that carbon is also combined with oxygen to make co/co2. If we have any science minded people who can weigh in if my understanding is correct I'd like to know.
That's not totally accurate.. Anthracite is 85-90+% fixed carbon, 2-4% hydrocarbons, small percent sulphur and 7-13% or so ash. Since coal is formed by nature and we pretty much burn it that way (other than busting it into usable pieces) all of those percentages vary a little bit from location to location. But as you can see, the reaction of Carbon with Oxygen (combustion) produces a huge majority of our heat. Only a few percent of the heat is produced from actual combustion of hydrogen.

 
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Post by wnycoalier » Tue. Sep. 24, 2019 1:31 pm

So are we with coal having two separate exothermic reactions to generate our heat. A H-O and a C and O ? This is where my poor understanding may mislead me.
To further muddy this example if coal can be heated to release methane ch4. Then we ignite ch4 and O what is the relative heat energy from the c and o of the ch4 and the h4 and o of the ch4.

 
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Post by McGiever » Tue. Sep. 24, 2019 2:31 pm

wnycoalier wrote:
Tue. Sep. 24, 2019 1:31 pm
So are we with coal having two separate exothermic reactions to generate our heat. A H-O and a C and O ? This is where my poor understanding may mislead me.
To further muddy this example if coal can be heated to release methane ch4. Then we ignite ch4 and O what is the relative heat energy from the c and o of the ch4 and the h4 and o of the ch4.
Maybe coal CO is not from CH4. Actually CH4 is only a gas and found in coal seams.

What is H4?

H makes up ~2% along with the 95% Carbon of Anthracite coal. Not much CH4 methane involved in combustion.
But a lot of CO...that is where most heat energy comes from, all before leftover CO2 finally leaves up the chimney.
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Post by Lightning » Tue. Sep. 24, 2019 3:17 pm

Anthracite only has a few % of volatile matter which consists of many different strings of hydrocarbons. CH4 (methane) might be present but only in a tiny quantity. A molecule of CH4 represents 1carbon atom with 4 hydrogen atoms bonded to it. When it burns complete with oxygen you get carbon dioxide (CO2) and water (H2O) in a 1:4 ratio respectively. This is why natural gas (methane) appeals to the "tree hugger" crowd over coal. Coal as you can imagine produces several tons of carbon dioxide per ton of coal burned. But that can of worms is for another thread :lol:

 
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Post by wnycoalier » Tue. Sep. 24, 2019 4:22 pm

Not interested in the Henny-Penny sky is falling co2 issue. I am trying to grasp with my limited science background those two prior posts. CO is fuel source, and conversely a byproduct of incomplete combustion so it is difficult to conceptually. So countering my first post, so assuming the stociometric works to burn CO in a i/c engine. Combining CO with O would leave nothing but Co2 and the exothermic reaction. (in real world probably some NO I'm assuming from atmospheric air being the o2 source) Thus you have a fuel source that has no hydrogen (or hydrocarbon) component. Being raised on the "hydrocarbon fossil fuel" outlook its difficult to appreciate, or in other words is that close?

 
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Post by Lightning » Tue. Sep. 24, 2019 5:13 pm

I suppose... but how are you to get pure CO to run thru an internal combustion engine?

 
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Post by McGiever » Tue. Sep. 24, 2019 9:43 pm

It is all about the carbon (C) being turned to CO2
CO comes first and is chemically unstable and wants to grab a 2nd O molecule real bad, combustion satisfys it to become the stable molecule as in CO2. And CO2 will not support combustion.
CO= fuel, CO2= no more fuel, Hydrogen= forgetaboutit

Unstable CO messes up your blood due to extended breathing of it...CO poisoning...remember...unstable

 
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Post by wnycoalier » Tue. Sep. 24, 2019 10:42 pm

So with synthetic gas , anthracite would be poor since it has so little volatiles where lignite would be better suited? What is it in heating anthracite that frees the carbon to react to become co and then co2?

 
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Post by McGiever » Tue. Sep. 24, 2019 11:39 pm

wnycoalier wrote:
Tue. Sep. 24, 2019 10:42 pm
So with synthetic gas , anthracite would be poor since it has so little volatiles where lignite would be better suited? What is it in heating anthracite that frees the carbon to react to become co and then co2?
Changing from a solid to a vapor.

 
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Post by Lightning » Wed. Sep. 25, 2019 7:18 am

wnycoalier wrote:
Tue. Sep. 24, 2019 10:42 pm
What is it in heating anthracite that frees the carbon to react to become co and then co2?
The answer is in your question, heat.

Once coal is brought to a specific temperature (temperature of ignition) it will react with oxygen fast enough to produce enough heat to keep the reaction continuing. At that point the availability of oxygen controls the speed at which the reaction continues and its total heat output.

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