Suggestions on Battery Backup for Harman Super Magnum?

 
coalnewbie
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Post by coalnewbie » Wed. Feb. 28, 2018 2:52 pm

Ready to switch over any day now. Stove on castors. I do need an ash pan however. $4 from HF.

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Post by 2biz » Wed. Feb. 28, 2018 9:03 pm

McGiever wrote:
Tue. Feb. 27, 2018 10:02 pm
Just some basic electric theory thrown in for readers...12 volt DC has a limited reach if going up for higher watt loads.

Consider connecting multiple golf cart batteries in series to get higher volts DC (24 or 48 VDC) so you can save some copper and also not suffer from voltage drop in the wires, even worse voltage drop if wires are not kept really short.

Surge ratings on inverters mean very little if the wire cannot handle it...too small of wire makes a "bottleneck".

Don't buy a 12 volt setup to start with and then discover later you really needed bigger and better, as these are not cheap to buy.
Just sharing some info for y'all. :)
And Even More info to ponder for anyone reading....

That was my dilemma when deciding on whether to go 12v or 24v....I knew I was going with (4) 242ah 6v golf cart batteries...And my load would only be 300-400w max...I still sized the input wires for max output of the inverter which didn't add that much cost to the over-all project. My main concern was how the inverter would charge the batteries. If I would have went 24v, as you mentioned, the batteries would have been wired 4s (4 in series). There is really no good way to charge batteries in this configuration unless you had a seperate smart charger that charged each battery individually...That would have taken a lot of additional wiring and an expensive charger. I didn't want to go that route as I wanted the Aims Charger to do the charging for me. So I opted for the 2s2p (2 series 2 parallel) 12v approach in order to keep the batteries more evenly charged. When checking voltage between the (2) sets of batteries that make 12v, voltage is always within .02v between batteries....I'm on year 3....
Oh and there is a special way to hook the batteries up in the 2s2p configuration for "more" even charging and discharging...I can post it if anyone is interested???

 
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Post by top top » Thu. Mar. 01, 2018 12:04 pm

Just wondering why no one is talking about 8d batteries in lieu of banks of golf cart batteries. From NAPA or interstate they run about $230, which should be cheaper/watt and would greatly simplify the cabling. Or for longer run times check out used/recon forklift batteries. They should offer good value compared to buying new. But really for backup heat without running a generator, why not use an unvented gas heater? Cheap, reliable, maintenance free. Just need NG or propane. Also good for shoulder season when you just need to knock the chill out first thing in the morning.

 
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Post by McGiever » Thu. Mar. 01, 2018 12:28 pm

Quick check says Group D Size are "Starting Batteries".
Although are a physically large battery they are not a "deep cycle" and are not constructed proper for back-up use demands and will disappoint so cost comparison is deceiving.

Reconditioned tow motor batteries are the toughest built battery one can find for backup. Being retired to back-up duty is a very easy life for these workhorses.
They are readily available and already come in 24 and 48 volt configurations and wiring is as simple as just the 2 leads as all the inter cell connections are solid molded lead. :yes:
However, the weight involved can be near to 2000 pounds. :o

As a home owner, finding proper batteries for back-up is not a new science, as most all the RE users know, it is unwise to try to reinvent the wheel when it comes to batteries. ;)

Some day you might even find a Tesla PowerWall installed in your home. :annoyed:

 
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Post by top top » Thu. Mar. 01, 2018 12:58 pm

McGiever wrote:
Thu. Mar. 01, 2018 12:28 pm
Quick check says Group D Size are "Starting Batteries".
Although are a physically large battery they are not a "deep cycle" and are not constructed proper for back-up use demands and will disappoint so cost comparison is deceiving.

Reconditioned tow motor batteries are the toughest built battery one can find.
They are readily available and come in 24 and 48 volt configurations and wiring is just the 2 leads as the inter cell connections are solid molded lead. :yes:

Finding proper batteries for back-up is not a new science, it is unwise to try to reinvent the wheel. ;)
NAPA disagrees. I have used these for house batteries/backup starting batteries on the boat for years with good results. But whatever. I'm certainly not an electrical engineer nor a battery expert.

On the Hatt with twin John Deere diesels we had three, two dedicated starting batts, one house batt, with an isolater/combiner switch. BTW, the big forklift batts are also available in 12 & 36 volt versions. I have a switchable rectifier, by moving jumpers on the circuit board I can choose 12,24,36,48 volt output.

https://www.napaonline.com/en/p/NBP8276
Features & Benefits
Ideal For Heavy-Duty Cycling Applications w/ Long, Deep Discharges & Long, Slow Recharges. (Can Also Be Used For Starting.) High Density Plate Paste Delivers More Power & Lives Longer. Vibration Resistant Design Handles Demanding Marine Use.

 
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Post by McGiever » Thu. Mar. 01, 2018 3:07 pm

Good info, toptop! :)

I intentional left the other voltages (12 & 36) out when speaking of the tow motor batteries, they are not a first pick due to being less compatible universally with the larger (3-4 kWatt and beyond) inverters/chargers.

There are "trade offs" buried in the details... ;)

 
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Post by captcaper » Tue. Mar. 13, 2018 2:38 pm

Definetly get the 6 volt Trogan T-105's..wire them for 12v... best bang for the buck.. They will last alot longer and you can run them down. Only $115 per battery. We use them in our RV's. They are better then AGM 12v's for sure..just ask any Golf Cart battery dealer who carries both for the carts. And a inverter to handle the stoves demand. You don't need one that is way over the Wattage needed..you'll just burn up amps while on idle.


 
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Post by zags5274 » Sun. Apr. 08, 2018 4:15 pm

Can somebody please provide some advice in regards to the battery hook up to my Harman Super Magnum coal stove. I recently purchased a Tripp Lite APS750 Inverter / Charger 750W 12V DC to 120V AC 20A 5-15R 2 Outlet, a NPP 12V 200 Amp NPD12 200Ah Rechargeable Sealed Lead Acid Deep Cycle 4D Battery With Button Style Terminals, a SCOSCHE X2WFH Single ANL Fuse Holder, a NEP ANL Fuse (150 Amp), and 2/0 AWG Gauge Red + Black Pure Copper Battery Inverter Cables Solar-RV-Car-Boat 3 ft 5/16 in Lugs to connect the battery and inverter. After hooking up all the components, plugging the inverter into the outlet, and the stove into the inverter everything seemed to work. Immediately the inverter charged the battery to full capacity and the next test was to unplug the inverter from the outlet, to stimulate a power outage to see if the Super Magnum would run. As soon as I unplugged the inverter, the power and status light stayed on, but the distribution and combustion blower lights went out. After a few seconds the combustion blower would rev for a second, turn off and then rev again. The process would continue until I plugged the inverter back into the outlet. Why won’t the distribution and combustion blower run?

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Post by McGiever » Sun. Apr. 08, 2018 9:56 pm

zags5274 wrote:
Sun. Apr. 08, 2018 4:15 pm
Can somebody please provide some advice in regards to the battery hook up to my Harman Super Magnum coal stove. I recently purchased a Tripp Lite APS750 Inverter / Charger 750W 12V DC to 120V AC 20A 5-15R 2 Outlet

As soon as I unplugged the inverter, the power and status light stayed on, but the distribution and combustion blower lights went out. After a few seconds the combustion blower would rev for a second, turn off and then rev again. The process would continue until I plugged the inverter back into the outlet. Why won’t the distribution and combustion blower run?
From page where purchased:


Question:
Have any engineers out there put a scope on the output? What does the waveform look like? thanks.
Answer:
I am a retired electrical engineer so I can tell you it is not necessary to scope the output of this inverter to tell you the output looks like crap as compared to a pure sine wave inverter. It is a modified square wave output that simulates a sine wave as close as possible. The only advantage of this inverter is it is cheap and has the ability to start inductive loads rather well because it can supply the necessary current needed to achieve motor starting. I use this inverter to run saws, drills, and a small air unit in my shop. I have two pure sine wave inverters that run my home because many electronic appliances require a pure sine wave. You can look up modified sine wave on the internet to see the difference in a modified sine wave and a pure sine wave. Hope this helps in your decision making.
By Paul D. Lawson on June 23, 2013
Your motors are controlled through electronic control board, unlike a power tool or other "motor only" load.
Last edited by McGiever on Sun. Apr. 08, 2018 10:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.

 
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Post by zags5274 » Sun. Apr. 08, 2018 10:05 pm

McGiever thank you for the respond. I still have time to send back the inverter and replace it with another one. Is there one that you would recommend?

 
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Post by McGiever » Sun. Apr. 08, 2018 10:19 pm

This has no receptacle built in, you'd have to add your own but still charges and does automatic transfer with utility power loss:
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01E3V66ZE/ref=psdc_223 ... B01MS9EI8Q
This does everything above and has receptacles built in:
EDIT:
https://www.amazon.com/Renogy-1000Watt-Inverter-C ... er+Charger
Last edited by McGiever on Mon. Apr. 09, 2018 9:43 pm, edited 2 times in total.

 
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Post by CapeCoaler » Mon. Apr. 09, 2018 10:55 am


 
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Post by lsayre » Mon. Apr. 09, 2018 11:02 am

if you are restricting yourself to a 12V battery, this $179 pure sine wave inverter actually meets its specs, per several independent tests performed on YouTube, from guys who failed a number of far more costly units.

https://www.amazon.com/Tiger-1500W-Power-Inverter ... r+inverter

 
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Post by Pauliewog » Mon. Apr. 09, 2018 12:02 pm

lsayre wrote:
Mon. Apr. 09, 2018 11:02 am
if you are restricting yourself to a 12V battery, this $179 pure sine wave inverter actually meets its specs, per several independent tests performed on YouTube, from guys who failed a number of far more costly units.

https://www.amazon.com/Tiger-1500W-Power-Inverter ... r+inverter
I think he planned to utilize it as a battery charger also.

Paulie

 
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Post by zags5274 » Mon. Apr. 09, 2018 12:06 pm

I am looking for an inverter that will also charge the battery..


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