First Question )

 
Torpex
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Post by Torpex » Wed. Nov. 07, 2018 2:03 pm

Hey Guys,
Somewhat new to Coal, burning Anthracite in my used Van Wert Simplex (108,000BTU) Multi-therm boiler since last January.

The Chimney is 30ft tall x 4'x4' with 4 flue's; 3-8"x8" and 1 - 12"x12" masonry/ceramic flu. The Boiler is connected to the 12"x12" through 6" steel pipe 12' inside the boiler room.

My question is, does higher elevation (>2300ft) pose challenges to burning hard-nut coal?
I know my barometer is down around 25-26 low press and normal high 27-28.

I was struggling keeping the fire hot so I did the following:
First I installed a single 50CFM blower on the unit to assist fire burning, then I got the notion that the grates might be clogging/restricting airflow, so I cut a 4" steel pipe, cut slots 180deg apart, set it on the grates and pushed the pipe to one side. This has ensured air gets up into the firebox and it has made a big difference in the heat output, with a stack temp @180-210.

Just trying to understand if its the unit or the environmental conditions of being at 2400ft is the issue. )) I'm Thinking the elevation makes burning a little more challenging.

Thanks for your thoughts!

Frank


 
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Post by DENNIS BAUER » Wed. Nov. 07, 2018 5:36 pm

I don't think the elevation will effect you as much as that large of a chimney. My house sits at 2250ft and Run a single 6" chimney. With a total length of about 16' out of the back of the stove. I have HUGE amounts of draft.

Can you hook up to one of the 8" chimneys? I think you'll have way better results.

 
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Post by CapeCoaler » Wed. Nov. 07, 2018 9:55 pm

Yep try the smaller flue if possible...

 
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Post by StokerDon » Wed. Nov. 07, 2018 10:02 pm

Welcome to the forum.
Torpex wrote:
Wed. Nov. 07, 2018 2:03 pm
The Boiler is connected to the 12"x12" through 6" steel pipe 12' inside the boiler room.
12' is kind of a long run. In this case the pipe must be pitched upward along the whole run. Also, it needs to be sealed up pretty good. Make sure there are no gaps or holes as this will kill the draft.

Do you have a Manometer to measure the draft?
Torpex wrote:
Wed. Nov. 07, 2018 2:03 pm
I cut a 4" steel pipe, cut slots 180deg apart, set it on the grates and pushed the pipe to one side. This has ensured air gets up into the firebox and it has made a big difference in the heat output, with a stack temp @180-210.
If I understand this correctly, you are forcing air above the fire? Normally this will kill and Anthracite fire.

I'm not familiar with the Simplex unit but if there are any overfire air valves or passages, you need to keep them closed or seal them up to keep and Anthracite fire going. Also, with Anthracite you fill the firebox to the top of the firebrick. You need a nice deep bed of coal or it won't burn right.

-Don

 
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Post by DENNIS BAUER » Wed. Nov. 07, 2018 10:08 pm

StokerDon wrote:
Wed. Nov. 07, 2018 10:02 pm
Welcome to the forum.

Do you have a Manometer to measure the draft?

If I understand this correctly, you are forcing air above the fire? Normally this will kill and Anthracite fire.

I'm not familiar with the Simplex unit but if there are any overfire air valves or passages, you need to keep them closed or seal them up to keep and Anthracite fire going. Also, with Anthracite you fill the firebox to the top of the firebrick. You need a nice deep bed of coal or it won't burn right.

-Don
Is there any chance that this over fire air is keeping this large chimney warm which is increasing the draft??

 
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Post by Torpex » Thu. Nov. 08, 2018 7:39 am

Thanks Guys!
Well....I definitely think I have a manometer....will have to look.

I did install a barometric flue draft and it does react, but I'm honestly not sure if its necessary.
I read a post here somewhere where it was installed with someones coal boiler, so I put one in.

The 12' run of exhaust is pitched upward to a larger plenum that connects to the 12x12 flue. Its pretty tight, no holes. But now that I think of it, the door draft probably should just be sealed up. Its one of those 3 hole vents that rotates (like on the older potbelly stoves). and I think its not helping draft control.

The Simplex has only the bottom door draft (Just like the upper round 3 hole draft) and the Sampson valve controlled draft, no other except my installing the blower.

The Unit has no firebrick, and no provision to install any. The intent of that pipe I installed in the firebox was to allow the fire to get air from the draft openings below the grates and into the side of the fire to keep it burning hot, which it did. Let me explain that the pipe I put in simply lays horizontally, the full length of the fire box flat across the grates, kinda like a perforated non burning log. Its only purpose is to allow air up through the grates.

I'm in agreement that hooking up to one of the 8" flues would give different possibly better results, I was wondering this myself. )

I have no problem getting a fire started burning wood, the fire roars! Transition to coal takes less than an hour, and by the second hour its making hot water for the house at 180deg 100% coal. I do wonder about the grates being fine/close fingers, makes me wonder if "stove" size coal would be better?

So This weekend I'll work on sealing up the loading door, finding that manometer, and devise plans to shift to the 8" flue in the next few weeks.

Thank You
Frank

 
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Post by StokerDon » Thu. Nov. 08, 2018 8:09 pm

DENNIS BAUER wrote:
Wed. Nov. 07, 2018 10:08 pm
Is there any chance that this over fire air is keeping this large chimney warm which is increasing the draft??
No one will know unless you measure the draft.

Close the air valve in the fire door. You may need to close the lower air valve to. The Sampson valve should be the only thing that controls the fire. Except for the fact that you have that blower??? It might be a better idea to keep the Sampson valve closed and control the blower by the boiler temperature.

I still don't understand why you need the pipe thing. All of the advise I have given you is aimed at keeping air from escaping around the coal bed so ALL of the air goes through the coal bed. It seems like that pipe is just another way for air to leak past the coal bed.

-Don


 
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Post by lsayre » Fri. Nov. 09, 2018 7:36 am

If you are using a blower to force-induce the fire, and you move to a smaller flue, you will increase the nasty potential to experience positive pressure in your firebox and thereby to let carbon monoxide into the house. I'm therefore against going forward with restrictions that will counter good draft. If you have too much draft, install a second barometric draft control (such as a Field Controls RC or Type-M) on the flue pipe.

I also think the blower should be introducing combustion air below the grates, as has already been mentioned, but others with more experience here should step up and correct me here.

 
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Post by Torpex » Fri. Nov. 09, 2018 2:28 pm

This Boiler, is located in the ground floor (filled in around 100%) of a 24' x 24' heater/storage building, so it poses no threat of carbon monoxide in my house. )

Everything everyone has states makes sense and leads me in the direction to switch from the 12 x 12 to the 8 x 8. I will do that over Thanksgiving holiday. This weekend I plan to make the loading door vent airtight and double check the whole stack/plenum, see what that does.

I was hoping to get feedback on the barometric draft necessity and the grates.

I dont have a user manual, so I'm not sure if it was designed for nut or stove size coal.

The reason for the "pipe thing" is to get air to the fire. The spaces between the grate is only 1/4"..This seems awfully small and requires shaking every 2-3 hours to keep air flowing up into the fire. When I put the "pipe thing" in it made a huge difference in heat output and the fire burning hot, so It worked, my guessing that the fire was getting choked out by the ash may have been right.

The Blower feeds air into the boiler below the grates.

A question would be how deep can the ash be before air wont flow through the ash?

 
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Post by Rob R. » Fri. Nov. 09, 2018 3:44 pm

Is the flue outlet on that boiler 6", or is it reduced down to 6" stove pipe?

 
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Post by rberq » Fri. Nov. 09, 2018 3:57 pm

Torpex wrote:
Fri. Nov. 09, 2018 2:28 pm
This Boiler, is located in the ground floor (filled in around 100%) of a 24' x 24' heater/storage building, so it poses no threat of carbon monoxide in my house.)
And you can hold your breath for 10 or 20 minutes when you are in that building tending the boiler. ;)
Torpex wrote:
Fri. Nov. 09, 2018 2:28 pm
The reason for the "pipe thing" is to get air to the fire. … The Blower feeds air into the boiler below the grates. A question would be how deep can the ash be before air wont flow through the ash?
I’m surprised, with any significant air pressure below the grates, that the pipe is needed. Are you sure there are no air passages around the sides or ends that allow blower air to bypass the coal bed?

If you haven't already done so, put "van wert simplex multi therm boiler" into Google. A lot of the results will lead you right back to this forum. One of the results talks about a chain-operated air inlet which I assume is operated by a bi-metal thermostat. This could be your friend or your foe depending on its location and open/closed state. Can you post some pictures of "everything," inside and outside the boiler?

 
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Post by StokerDon » Fri. Nov. 09, 2018 4:20 pm

rberq wrote:
Fri. Nov. 09, 2018 3:57 pm
One of the results talks about a chain-operated air inlet which I assume is operated by a bi-metal thermostat. This could be your friend or your foe depending on its location and open/closed state.
That is the Sampson valve. Good point though, if it, or anything else is open the blower will blow out into the boiler room.
Torpex wrote:
Fri. Nov. 09, 2018 2:28 pm
I was hoping to get feedback on the barometric draft necessity and the grates.
Yes, you absolutely need to have a draft and you should measure it so you know if that is the problem.
Torpex wrote:
Fri. Nov. 09, 2018 2:28 pm
I dont have a user manual, so I'm not sure if it was designed for nut or stove size coal.
That doesn't matter. Most of these will burn Nut or Stove, some will burn Pea if the grate gaps arn't too big. It's really the grate that determines the coal size, if it doesn't fall through, yer good.
Torpex wrote:
Fri. Nov. 09, 2018 2:28 pm
The reason for the "pipe thing" is to get air to the fire. The spaces between the grate is only 1/4"..This seems awfully small and requires shaking every 2-3 hours to keep air flowing up into the fire. When I put the "pipe thing" in it made a huge difference in heat output and the fire burning hot, so It worked, my guessing that the fire was getting choked out by the ash may have been right.
You never shake a coal fire that often. Something that size should easily go 12 hours without touching it.
1/4" is NOT awfully small and it actually sounds bigger than what I have seen in furnaces and boilers.
How deep the ash is has no bearing on how it operates. This gets back to the draft question. If you are NOT maintaining a proper draft, this boiler will never burn correctly. Coal fires are very sensitive to draft, wood fires are not.

Also, I seriously doubt that switching chimneys will help. You just need to forget everything you learned about wood burning and learn how to burn Anthracite coal. It's not hard, but it does take a little bit of studying.

-Don

 
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Post by Lightning » Fri. Nov. 09, 2018 4:54 pm

Torpex wrote:
Fri. Nov. 09, 2018 2:28 pm
I was hoping to get feedback on the barometric draft necessity
The baro will limit your draft pressure. A stable draft will make your fire easier to manage. A manometer will help you with troubleshooting draft problems. I would not go thru the hassle of changing flues without first identifying what the draft is doing with a manometer. Don't let the name intimidate you, they are relatively inexpensive and simple to install.
Torpex wrote:
Fri. Nov. 09, 2018 2:28 pm
The reason for the "pipe thing" is to get air to the fire. The spaces between the grate is only 1/4"..This seems awfully small and requires shaking every 2-3 hours to keep air flowing up into the fire.
I think the pipe thing needs to come out of the fuel bed. It doesn't belong there. I also agree with Don, you should easily get 12 hours between tendings. My normal tending schedule is 24 hours, I even run it for 48 hours during mild weather on occasion without suffocating the fuel bed. How deep are you building up the coal bed? It should be a minimum of 8 inches deep with nut coal, you can go 12+ inches deep with stove size coal.

Here is a simple effective tending routine. At tending time, first rev up the fire by opening the ash door for about 10+ minutes. Then shake the grates. Shake until a few red embers fall into the ash pan and you can see an orange glow radiating down into the ash pan. Next, fill it to the depths described above. Finally, leave the ash door open until the fresh batch ignites. Do not forget the ash door is open.
Torpex wrote:
Fri. Nov. 09, 2018 2:28 pm
A question would be how deep can the ash be before air wont flow through the ash?
I'm confused with this question. How deep where? Your fuel bed should be clean of ash after shaking. At that point it would be good to go for 12 hours.

How about some pictures?

 
Torpex
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Post by Torpex » Sat. Nov. 10, 2018 3:18 pm

Rob R. wrote:
Fri. Nov. 09, 2018 3:44 pm
Is the flue outlet on that boiler 6", or is it reduced down to 6" stove pipe?
The manufacturer outlet size is 6”

 
Torpex
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Post by Torpex » Sat. Nov. 10, 2018 3:36 pm

I just removed the loading door and the previous owner used hard refractory cement to seal the door in. In addition to it being cracked and broken he put it in the wrong area. So I cleaned it up and out and put in the proper gasket material in the proper sealing location.
It’s burning better already.

Ummmm yes... if I turn the blower on I shut all other draft openings 😏
I
I have a pocket manometer. When should I be reading the draft? I would guess I need to shut the blower off and use the natural flow draft?


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