New Yorker WC 90

Post Reply
User avatar
hotblast1357
Member
Posts: 3116
Joined: Mon. Mar. 10, 2014 10:06 pm
Stoker Coal Boiler: 1984 Eshland S260 coal gun
Coal Size/Type: Lehigh anthracite pea
Other Heating: oil furnace
Location: Peasleeville NY

Post Sat. Apr. 11, 2015 7:49 am

Today is the day, going south too pick up a New Yorker 90 boiler, I have forced hot air In my house, I am taking out the hotblast furnace, and installing a water too air exchanger in the oil furnace plenum. I am pulling the baseburner out and installing a modine in the garage. Eventually I will plumb my DHW in too once I find a indirect water tank. I also will plumb the hot tub in with a stainless steel water too water exchanger. Here is a diagram I made about the install, please feel free to suggest better ways and different ideas. Thank you. I am going to be running black iron pipe too my manifolds, and I haven't decided what too run after the manifolds too every zone, copper is way too expensive, so I'm thinking either black iron or 02 barrier pex. My concern with pex is the chance of overheating it.
Attachments
image.jpg


User avatar
franpipeman
Member
Posts: 220
Joined: Fri. Jan. 11, 2008 4:27 pm
Stoker Coal Boiler: efm 520 stoker fitzgibbons pressure vessel
Hand Fed Coal Stove: harman, russo
Coal Size/Type: rice
Other Heating: alpine propane condensing boiler radiant floor
Location: Wernersville pa

Post Sat. Apr. 11, 2015 8:59 am

Pex is rated at 180 F and some brands may be rate higher I have per under floor radiant and during coal operation it gets close to 180 as my coal boiler is some distance from the house. I don't see it getting stressed out from temperature nor the 22 psi pressure that I run. Expansion contraction will happen so be prepared but they have some very good , though some what pricey hanger clips for pex. Be sure you get oxygen barrier pex not domestic water pex. My memory tells me per is rate at 180 @ 100 psi . I don't think anyone should be running 100 psi in any residential heating application unless there is a fault in the system.

waldo lemieux
Member
Posts: 2268
Joined: Sun. Sep. 30, 2012 8:20 pm
Stove/Furnace Make: efm
Stove/Furnace Model: s-20
Location: Ithaca,NY

Post Sat. Apr. 11, 2015 9:05 am

Your plan looks ok, that said the thing that would concern me would be getting the correct size HE ,circulator and pipe size for that zone. Its not something Ive messed with so I have no input there.... Maybe its something that is fairly fool proof idk. Be worth asking somebody about . good luck

waldo

User avatar
StokerDon
Site Moderator
Posts: 3313
Joined: Mon. Nov. 11, 2013 11:17 am
Stoker Coal Boiler: BairMatic BMC-500 with Van Wert VA400 Stoker, Gentleman Janitor GJ-671/EFM S-15 stoker, Van Wert VA-600
Hand Fed Coal Furnace: Harman SF3500
Coal Size/Type: Rice and Chestnut
Other Heating: Noth'in but COAL! Well, Maybe a little tiny bit of wood
Location: PA, Southern York County!

Post Sat. Apr. 11, 2015 9:22 am

That looks like it will work. A few things to consider;

1) Large floor mounted expansion tank. I use a 14 gallon. With a hand fired, as you know, once you get a coal fire Roar'in, it takes time to get it calmed down. During this time, the boiler temp can go up over 212*. The expanding water will then cause a blow off of the PRV. A large expansion tank can take the expanding water, prevent a blow off and eliminate the need for a dump zone.

2) It is a good idea to use "J" tubes and or flow checks. These will minimize the tendency for water to flow through an unactiveted zone, causing "Ghost Flow".

3) If you are going to use PEX, use only oxygen barrier PEX. Keep in mind, PEX is rated for well over 180* BUT, when running it over 180* it degrades very quickly. This means that it becomes brittle and could break.

4) Don't discount a "Pump Away" configuration. Some people think the Pump Away is the best way to design a system. Other people like it the old fashon way with the pump on the return.

If you feel like taking a long drive, you could probebly get this nice Boiler Mate indirect for $100.

**Broken Link(S) Removed**

-Don

User avatar
franpipeman
Member
Posts: 220
Joined: Fri. Jan. 11, 2008 4:27 pm
Stoker Coal Boiler: efm 520 stoker fitzgibbons pressure vessel
Hand Fed Coal Stove: harman, russo
Coal Size/Type: rice
Other Heating: alpine propane condensing boiler radiant floor
Location: Wernersville pa

Post Sat. Apr. 11, 2015 9:44 am

PS perhaps the most important aspect of pex longevity it must not be pemanently exposed to light.. then it will degrade for sure. I am a advocate for insulation anyway.

User avatar
whistlenut
Member
Posts: 3548
Joined: Sat. Mar. 17, 2007 6:29 pm
Stoker Coal Boiler: AA130's,260's, AHS130&260's,EFM900,GJ & V-Wert
Hand Fed Coal Boiler: Franks,Itasca 415,Jensen, NYer 130,Van Wert
Hot Air Coal Stoker Furnace: Alaska, EFM, Keystoker, Yellow Flame
Hot Air Coal Stoker Stove: Alaska, Keystoker-2,Leisure Line
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Alaska, Gibraltar, Keystone,Vc Vigilant 2
Hand Fed Coal Furnace: Ford, Jensen, NYer, Van Wert,
Baseburners & Antiques: Glenwoods
Coal Size/Type: Barley, Buck, Rice ,Nut, Stove
Other Heating: Oil HWBB
Location: Central NH, Concord area

Post Sat. Apr. 11, 2015 10:58 am

Listen to the other guys!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! You cannot control the fire accurately to prevent overheating, especially this time of year when demand drops to nothing in the heart of the day, but is calling morning and overnight. PLEASE install some device like a modine or a big loop that is controlled only by a 4006 (makes on demand aquastat) You could care less about other functions, but I've seen 260 degrees+ on units that have no protective dump zone. Even stokers will overheat in the fringe season if you have not properly created a dump zone. Yes, large expansion tanks help a great deal, however a dump zone is a must. Also, if you are caught in the unpleasant situation with a power loss after a robust firing, you might not even be home to manually open....so large expansion tanks help a great deal.
I have been in homes that had the ballast tank liner rupture due to extreme heat....and now you have nothing to prevent a blow off of the PRV. Lots of folks have a 5 gallon plastic bucket under the overflow pipe, and when you see a melted bucket, you know there is trouble from the the overheated boiler. It will also take out a circulator if the temp gets too high, too often. No pex will take 260 degrees for any length of time and you should NEVER let it happen. I removed a boiler and all pex from a water to air unit and the pex after only one winter would snap when you tried to coil it up. The pex in the radiant loops was not leaking and the baseboard loops were not leaking, but it was a system under severe stress. I kept a few pieces to show folks and salespeople what CAN happen under severe conditions, and if I tried right this second to bend it, it would just snap. Scares the hell out of me knowing there are millions of hybrid systems out there.
Do NOT think you are smarter than the average guy......play it safe and use logic and common sense. TEST you backup unit frequently; it will save thousands of dollars in repairs.
Last edited by whistlenut on Sat. Apr. 11, 2015 12:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
StokerDon
Site Moderator
Posts: 3313
Joined: Mon. Nov. 11, 2013 11:17 am
Stoker Coal Boiler: BairMatic BMC-500 with Van Wert VA400 Stoker, Gentleman Janitor GJ-671/EFM S-15 stoker, Van Wert VA-600
Hand Fed Coal Furnace: Harman SF3500
Coal Size/Type: Rice and Chestnut
Other Heating: Noth'in but COAL! Well, Maybe a little tiny bit of wood
Location: PA, Southern York County!

Post Sat. Apr. 11, 2015 11:11 am

I was actualy considering removing my PEX and installing copper or black iron pipe. Now you have me considering it again Whistlenut!

-Don

User avatar
McGiever
Member
Posts: 6115
Joined: Sun. May. 02, 2010 11:26 pm
Stoker Coal Boiler: AXEMAN-ANDERSON 130 "1959"
Coal Size/Type: PEA / ANTHRACITE
Other Heating: Ground Source Heat Pump
Stove/Furnace Make: Hydro Heat /Mega Tek
Location: Junction of PA-OH-WV

Post Sat. Apr. 11, 2015 11:13 am

Modines are for some reason insanely high priced...even old used ones. :o

Modine's are not complex in their build, a housed air to water H/X with a added fan and a switch to cycle the fan to maintain a set desired temp.

Some members here have found old air handlers and adapted them to get the same job done.

For your whole design, as was mentioned, proper sizing is not where one should come up short.

Never figure on using huge unrealistic pump flow rates and overly high water temps to try and save money on buying undersized components to install. :idea:


Pacowy
Member
Posts: 2879
Joined: Tue. Sep. 04, 2007 10:14 pm
Stoker Coal Boiler: H.B. Smith 350 Mills boiler/EFM 85R stoker
Coal Size/Type: Buckwheat/anthracite
Location: Dalton, MA

Post Sat. Apr. 11, 2015 11:19 am

hotblast1357 wrote: I am taking out the hotblast furnace.

I am pulling the baseburner out and installing a modine in the garage.
Both of those sound like reasons to consider changing your username. :lol:

Congrats on the boiler.

Mike

User avatar
McGiever
Member
Posts: 6115
Joined: Sun. May. 02, 2010 11:26 pm
Stoker Coal Boiler: AXEMAN-ANDERSON 130 "1959"
Coal Size/Type: PEA / ANTHRACITE
Other Heating: Ground Source Heat Pump
Stove/Furnace Make: Hydro Heat /Mega Tek
Location: Junction of PA-OH-WV

Post Sat. Apr. 11, 2015 11:38 am

What is the size of the oil furnace supply plenum?

User avatar
StokerDon
Site Moderator
Posts: 3313
Joined: Mon. Nov. 11, 2013 11:17 am
Stoker Coal Boiler: BairMatic BMC-500 with Van Wert VA400 Stoker, Gentleman Janitor GJ-671/EFM S-15 stoker, Van Wert VA-600
Hand Fed Coal Furnace: Harman SF3500
Coal Size/Type: Rice and Chestnut
Other Heating: Noth'in but COAL! Well, Maybe a little tiny bit of wood
Location: PA, Southern York County!

Post Sat. Apr. 11, 2015 11:41 am

McGiever wrote:Modines are for some reason insanely high priced...even old used ones. :o

Modine's are not complex in their build, a housed air to water H/X with a added fan and a switch to cycle the fan to maintain a set desired temp.

:idea:
I bought my HX's from here. I couldn't find a used, beat up, needed soldered back together Modine for the price they sell these for brand new! I have 3. currently only using 1.

http://www.badgerinsulatedpipe.com/CategoryProduc ... ater+Units

-Don

User avatar
Rob R.
Site Moderator
Posts: 11658
Joined: Fri. Dec. 28, 2007 4:26 pm
Stoker Coal Boiler: EFM DF520
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Hitzer 50-93
Coal Size/Type: Lehigh Rice
Other Heating: Dad's 1953 EFM Highboy
Location: Chazy, NY

Post Sat. Apr. 11, 2015 11:47 am

A few thoughts for you.

You do not need to use 1.5" piping on a 90,000 btu/hr boiler. 1.25" is plenty.

Depending on the size and insulation of your garage, you may want to consider some cast iron radiators or even fin-tube baseboard instead of a modine.

Do not put a check valve in the bypass, use a ball or gate valve.

I don't see a circulator in the diagram. I am a fan of "pumping away" on oil units or stokers, but for a hand-fed boiler I would put it on the return. You can use some normally open zone valves on the supply side, that way when the power goes out they open and the boiler doesn't overheat.

Use a 4006B to control the dump zone, you will need it.

User avatar
StokerDon
Site Moderator
Posts: 3313
Joined: Mon. Nov. 11, 2013 11:17 am
Stoker Coal Boiler: BairMatic BMC-500 with Van Wert VA400 Stoker, Gentleman Janitor GJ-671/EFM S-15 stoker, Van Wert VA-600
Hand Fed Coal Furnace: Harman SF3500
Coal Size/Type: Rice and Chestnut
Other Heating: Noth'in but COAL! Well, Maybe a little tiny bit of wood
Location: PA, Southern York County!

Post Sat. Apr. 11, 2015 12:13 pm

Another suggestion, On the supply, you run strait up into a 90* then over to the air scoop. Replace the 90* with a T, with the bull head end facing up. Install a ball valve in the end of the T. This will make filling AND draining the boiler much easier.

-Don

User avatar
whistlenut
Member
Posts: 3548
Joined: Sat. Mar. 17, 2007 6:29 pm
Stoker Coal Boiler: AA130's,260's, AHS130&260's,EFM900,GJ & V-Wert
Hand Fed Coal Boiler: Franks,Itasca 415,Jensen, NYer 130,Van Wert
Hot Air Coal Stoker Furnace: Alaska, EFM, Keystoker, Yellow Flame
Hot Air Coal Stoker Stove: Alaska, Keystoker-2,Leisure Line
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Alaska, Gibraltar, Keystone,Vc Vigilant 2
Hand Fed Coal Furnace: Ford, Jensen, NYer, Van Wert,
Baseburners & Antiques: Glenwoods
Coal Size/Type: Barley, Buck, Rice ,Nut, Stove
Other Heating: Oil HWBB
Location: Central NH, Concord area

Post Sat. Apr. 11, 2015 12:44 pm

Another thought....and I do have some hand fired equipment using this method: ALWAYS leave the manifold with black iron or copper to a minimum length of 18". Any experienced supply house guy will tell you that, AND a pumping away circ is fine prior to the 18" length. By no means should you freak out,; we are simply sparing you from hearing a steam bath release and piping death rattle of the local piping or PRV puking when YOU least expect it. Pipe the PRV to within a foot( or closer) of the floor and put a union in that piping so you can get it apart if required. I also like Don's suggestion of adding a to the multipurpose opening. I install a reducing 'T' for the low water cut off there, and frequently a second reducing 'T' for an immersion temp sensor. The tridicator gauge that does temp and pressure usually is 'highly inaccurate', so up the quality and sleep securely. Keeping a constant load makes a hand fed most happy, and for the other times, you need to pay attention to needs. Set-back thermostats are not necessary, and hot water production is 'equalized by an indirect water heater, and is short money for a safe used unit.

Get it home, hook it up and play when you are around. Get to learn the quirks, if any, and enjoy. This time of year, you can burn pea only or a mix of nut and pea. Nut will be easier to play with, but not last as long.

User avatar
Rob R.
Site Moderator
Posts: 11658
Joined: Fri. Dec. 28, 2007 4:26 pm
Stoker Coal Boiler: EFM DF520
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Hitzer 50-93
Coal Size/Type: Lehigh Rice
Other Heating: Dad's 1953 EFM Highboy
Location: Chazy, NY

Post Sat. Apr. 11, 2015 1:19 pm

StokerDon wrote:Another suggestion, On the supply, you run strait up into a 90* then over to the air scoop. Replace the 90* with a T, with the bull head end facing up. Install a ball valve in the end of the T. This will make filling AND draining the boiler much easier.

-Don
A boiler drain in that location does the same thing, and allows you to connect a hose and limit water spatter on top of the boiler. A couple tee's in the supply riser are always nice, I have a fancy gauge on mine.


Post Reply

Return to “Hand Fired Coal Boilers Using Anthracite”