New Boiler Temps

If you are in need of a more conventional heating solution that requires no power look no further. Unlike an automated stoker boiler these units do not require power to generate heat. They can be set up wiith pumps like a typical boiler or a gravity fed sytem insuring heat during power failures. Models include many New Yorker coal boilers, EFM WCB-24 and others. Some of these units can also burn wood.
cabinover
Member
Posts: 1589
Joined: Wed. Feb. 04, 2009 7:13 am
Stoker Coal Boiler: Hybrid Axeman Anderson 130
Baseburners & Antiques: Sparkle #12
Coal Size/Type: Pea, Buckwheat, Nut
Other Heating: LP Hot air. WA TX for coal use.
Location: Fair Haven, VT

Post Fri. Mar. 04, 2011 8:49 pm

markviii wrote:Tell them to bring the fan kit, and to be prepared to bring the boiler back with them if it won't build temperature.

-Rob
I'm with Rob. It doesn't seem like you have a problem burning through coal that a forced draft would help, you already go through more in a week than I do a month. Unless you bought smaller coal I just don't understand what extra draft would help. Maybe with the fan they're gonna tell you to burn pea?
Always learning, still stupid though :D


cabinover
Member
Posts: 1589
Joined: Wed. Feb. 04, 2009 7:13 am
Stoker Coal Boiler: Hybrid Axeman Anderson 130
Baseburners & Antiques: Sparkle #12
Coal Size/Type: Pea, Buckwheat, Nut
Other Heating: LP Hot air. WA TX for coal use.
Location: Fair Haven, VT

Post Wed. Mar. 09, 2011 5:54 am

So Mac, are they busy pulling out the boiler and installing something in it's place for you?
Always learning, still stupid though :D

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Freddy
Member
Posts: 6604
Joined: Fri. Apr. 11, 2008 2:54 pm
Stoker Coal Boiler: Axeman Anderson 130 (pea)
Hot Air Coal Stoker Stove: Reading piece o' junk in the barn (rice)
Coal Size/Type: Pea size, Superior, deep mined
Location: Orrington, Maine

Post Wed. Mar. 09, 2011 10:00 am

A month ago today I asked a few questions, and even at this point only some have been addressed. I'd still like to see photos of the interior of the boiler when it's empty. That will tell a lot about how it might burn coal. Second, you NEED a barometric damper! I'd almost wager a days pay that the dealer that told you it only needs a manual damper has not burned 50 pounds of anthracite in his life. The simple fact is -.06 draft is too much, way too much, and now the dealer wants you to add a forced draft? He is not knowledgeable about his product, he is not knowledgeable about burning coal and and it's quite possible that his product will never burn anthracite as well as it should. Stop listening to him! It's sad that you are at this point, and it's quite possible that a baro will cure 98% of all your problems, but if you have the wherewithal to do it, I'd junk that multi purpose compromise and install an AHS. You will not be disappointed. One thing though....when you shell out the 8 grand for the AHS, make sure to pick up a $30 barometric damper.
Orrington, Maine
Fred

"If you can't say something nice, don't say anything at all".

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oliver power
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Posts: 2266
Joined: Sun. Apr. 16, 2006 9:28 am
Stoker Coal Boiler: KEYSTOKER Kaa-2
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Hitzer 50-93 & 30-95, Vigilant (pre-Vigilant-II), D.S. 1600 Circulator
Baseburners & Antiques: MANY (Mostly when burning wood)
Location: Near Dansville, NY

Post Wed. Mar. 09, 2011 11:09 am

Freddy wrote:A month ago today I asked a few questions, and even at this point only some have been addressed. I'd still like to see photos of the interior of the boiler when it's empty. That will tell a lot about how it might burn coal. Second, you NEED a barometric damper! I'd almost wager a days pay that the dealer that told you it only needs a manual damper has not burned 50 pounds of anthracite in his life. The simple fact is -.06 draft is too much, way too much, and now the dealer wants you to add a forced draft? He is not knowledgeable about his product, he is not knowledgeable about burning coal and and it's quite possible that his product will never burn anthracite as well as it should. Stop listening to him! It's sad that you are at this point, and it's quite possible that a baro will cure 98% of all your problems, but if you have the wherewithal to do it, I'd junk that multi purpose compromise and install an AHS. You will not be disappointed. One thing though....when you shell out the 8 grand for the AHS, make sure to pick up a $30 barometric damper.
I agree with you Freddy. Funny, but to the point........We are all waiting / watching this post.

macdabs
Member
Posts: 142
Joined: Mon. Jan. 03, 2011 1:57 pm
Stoker Coal Boiler: AHS 260
Coal Size/Type: Pea
Other Heating: Pellet,oil
Stove/Furnace Make: AHS
Stove/Furnace Model: S260
Location: central Pa

Post Wed. Mar. 09, 2011 12:22 pm

Sorry I have not posted, I am out west in 70+ temps for work. I should be back tomorrow.

MAC

macdabs
Member
Posts: 142
Joined: Mon. Jan. 03, 2011 1:57 pm
Stoker Coal Boiler: AHS 260
Coal Size/Type: Pea
Other Heating: Pellet,oil
Stove/Furnace Make: AHS
Stove/Furnace Model: S260
Location: central Pa

Post Sat. Mar. 12, 2011 6:43 am

I arrived late Thursday night and went straight Friday morning to the dealer to pick up the draft inducer fan idea. I also took my Samson Valve and chain assembly with me . The draft inducer was two plates and a squirrel cage fan with a home made box almost like the old ford heater core outlets on a 67 Mustang or cougar. I noticed it had a flap so you needed to wire it to a aquastat and the samson valve to shut the draft. I was told $225.00 for this kit and that I needed a longer chain cause my chain was to short that they gave me to begin with. :x I was speachless! I questioned him on my Samson Valve and was told to try another one @$125.00 and he would send my other one back for warranty. Also he sent a couple other Samson valves back and if it had teeth marks from a pipe wrench the warranty would be voided. The new Samson Valves have a big sticker on them not to use pipe wrenches or adjustable wrenches or warranty would be voided. I left my Samson valve to be sent to the factory and was given a longer chain and charged 125.00 for a new one and left without the homemade looking fan inducer disgusted.. :x What options do I have next?

Mac

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Sting
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Posts: 2970
Joined: Mon. Feb. 25, 2008 4:24 pm
Other Heating: OBSO Lennox Pulse "Air Scorcher" burning NG
Location: Lower Fox Valley = Wisconsin

Post Sat. Mar. 12, 2011 8:20 am

one that comes to mind and I have skirted several times - this may be on your mind, and Ill bet it has crossed the thoughts of others here also...

Stop being and getting screwed by this dealer that advised you to buy and install this contraption.

You never did any of your own analysis of what it would take to heat the place ( as I read in these pages ) so its not your fault right :cry:

but it will feel a lot better when you stop beating your head on the low pipe. I will also have to say that there appears to be a reasonable amount of blame to share between the two of you - somebody was not listening but its not exactly clear to me who - yet at this time the dearer appears to have washed his hands of you and that may or may not be for a good reason - Likely he is just another bad dealer but it depends.

Its time to start over - get the right set up in your boiler room for the way you live and the load you want to heat.

Advice on what to do to recover from the previous mistakes :?: :?: --> Don't look back. :roll:
When you turn your boiler on -Does it return the favor?
I have finally lost my mind. Don't bother to return it. It wasn't working properly anyway!

packard bill
Member
Posts: 62
Joined: Sun. Nov. 09, 2008 7:41 am
Hand Fed Coal Boiler: DS Machine and homebuilt
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Franco-Belge
Coal Size/Type: Nut,pea
Stove/Furnace Make: Franco Belge 40k
Stove/Furnace Model: D.S. Machine boiler
Location: Pennsylvania,USA

Post Sat. Mar. 12, 2011 9:56 am

Here's my 2cents worth. From your eaearlier pics and the postings here, I don't see that you have installed a barometric, you need one. From what you've posted here, your coal fire is burning good (and without a baro some heat may be going up flue pipe). fROM YOUR PICS posted elsewhere, you have several pumps and a large radiant floor heat manifold to heat your large concrete shop floor.
This boiler is designed for gravity flow or low flow pumping of the boiler water. I believe (I know) you are pumping the water through the boiler too fast. The water is not in the boiler long enough to absorb the BTU's being pulled out of the water by the heat load, i.e. the concrete floor, and household boiler etc.

You either have to install a bypass pipe from boiler outlet to boiler return to keep reheating some of the water or install a low flow pump (like a grundfos 3 speed set on low)

If you want (or need) to pump as you are now set up for, you need a boiler with more heating surface (tubes) so the water can absorb more heat while it's in the boiler.

Hope this helps you, it has helped others.

Packard Bill


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Sting
Member
Posts: 2970
Joined: Mon. Feb. 25, 2008 4:24 pm
Other Heating: OBSO Lennox Pulse "Air Scorcher" burning NG
Location: Lower Fox Valley = Wisconsin

Post Sat. Mar. 12, 2011 1:56 pm

packard bill wrote: you are pumping the water through the boiler too fast. The water is not in the boiler long enough to absorb the BTU's being pulled out of the water by the heat load, i.e. the concrete floor, and household boiler etc.
l
achemmm -- Lets visit about this for a moment Bill

So because you assume the system is over pumped --

The energy is not being picked up OUT of the boiler and being moved/absorbed to the load

and this is the reason the boiler will not get HOT?

Image
When you turn your boiler on -Does it return the favor?
I have finally lost my mind. Don't bother to return it. It wasn't working properly anyway!

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nortcan
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Posts: 3080
Joined: Sat. Feb. 20, 2010 3:32 pm
Stove/Furnace Make: Stuart,Peterson/ Grander
Stove/Furnace Model: Sunnyside/ Golden Bride
Location: Qc Canada

Post Sat. Mar. 12, 2011 3:39 pm

Hoops, just wanted to see Sting's Avatar LOL

packard bill
Member
Posts: 62
Joined: Sun. Nov. 09, 2008 7:41 am
Hand Fed Coal Boiler: DS Machine and homebuilt
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Franco-Belge
Coal Size/Type: Nut,pea
Stove/Furnace Make: Franco Belge 40k
Stove/Furnace Model: D.S. Machine boiler
Location: Pennsylvania,USA

Post Sat. Mar. 12, 2011 7:29 pm

Nice meter, Sting. This guy is trying to thaw a giant ice cube (his concrete floor). If he did A "HEAT SURVEY" and if the boiler is sized close to his needs it will work. I don't know how D.S Machine rates their boilers, whether it's net absorbtion, or based on theoretical pounds of fuel/hr based on grate size, or how much coal you can stuff in the firebox and burn for an hour.

I don't know how much handfired coal boiler firing experience you have, but I've been doing it all my life,I grew up firing an Ideal boiler. Every home and small commercial building I've done repair work in that had a hand fired boiler was a"gravity" system. If the system was converted to forced water it was converted to oil or gas and the inverse is also true, if it was converted to oil or gas it was converted to forced hot water, for delivering hot water faster.

If Mac has the patience to try it and let that concrete heat up slowly,bit by bit with boiler water leaving the boiler at 160* with a baro installed (and the boiler is close to the proper size) I'm sure it will work,just a slow process. I'm so sure it will work I'll bet you $20 it will. I've never welched on a bet in my life.
We'll let "Mac" be the judge, if he's willing to try.

Packard Bill

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lsayre
Member
Posts: 12219
Joined: Wed. Nov. 23, 2005 9:17 pm
Stoker Coal Boiler: AHS S130 Coal Gun
Coal Size/Type: Blaschak Anthracite Pea
Other Heating: Resistance Boiler (13.5 KW)
Location: N/E Ohio, between Medina and Wadsworth

Post Sat. Mar. 12, 2011 7:37 pm

What confuses me is that his oil boiler which is rated for a good percentage less BTU output than the coal boiler "easily" fills his heating needs in mere minutes after it is turned on, and his coal boiler with a substantially greater "rated" BTU output can not do the job under any give time span. I question all of those who are insisting that a heat study is needed to determine the needs here when he already knows that his oil boiler is doing the job without even breaking a sweat. Then I question how a coal boiler claimed to be of a sizably greater BTU output than an oil boiler is nowhere near up to the task. On top of all of this I question why when he tosses wood into it the coal boiler suddenly turns into a heat monster, and it is likewise capable of heating sufficiently for all of his needs. I'll admit that I don't have answers, I only have questions (thus my confusion).
-Larry

Democracy rests upon the principle that collective wisdom arises from a pool of individual ignorance. A Republic rests squarely upon objective law, and fundamentally upon those laws which restrict the scope and actions of government.

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Sting
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Posts: 2970
Joined: Mon. Feb. 25, 2008 4:24 pm
Other Heating: OBSO Lennox Pulse "Air Scorcher" burning NG
Location: Lower Fox Valley = Wisconsin

Post Sat. Mar. 12, 2011 7:55 pm

ok Bill -- I bow to your testimonial of hand fired expertise

No questions there

but hand fired - automatic fired - or nuclear fired

if the guy was pumping too much (assumption) == and he has promised that he isolated the boiler from the load as a test of that - and if that (now questionable) over pumping was defeating the transfer efficiency of the vessel and as you put it "The water is not in the boiler long enough to absorb the BTU's being pulled out"--- THEN the boiler would be making set point and not operating below condensing temperatures. But that isn't what happen when you over pump a boiler - the boiler give up its energy to the water in the same way - but the energy is carried away too fast for the boiler to recover.

SO in an over-pumped gravity conversion - you get super long burn times - expensive system operation - and an uncomfortable dwelling. System balance remediation will fix this - YES a bypass or temperature reducing loop will also, but my point is - over pumping will not defeat boiler transfer efficiency - to the point that the boiler will not reach set point because the energy is not transferring from vessel to liquid. The exact opposite is the problem.

-- You must be confusing over-pumping load radiation. Then the load will never get hot because the energy fly's thru with out transferring to the load. HERE the boiler is not getting hot fired with coal

Hypothesis - the salesman suckered a customer

Conclusion - the appliance SUCKS as a coal fired unit. Hand feed or otherwise Ill bet 8-)
Last edited by Sting on Sat. Mar. 12, 2011 10:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.
When you turn your boiler on -Does it return the favor?
I have finally lost my mind. Don't bother to return it. It wasn't working properly anyway!

User avatar
Coalfire
Member
Posts: 1029
Joined: Mon. Nov. 23, 2009 8:28 pm
Hand Fed Coal Stove: DS Machine 96K btu Circulator
Coal Size/Type: Nut
Location: Denver, PA

Post Sat. Mar. 12, 2011 8:07 pm

lsayre wrote:What confuses me is that his oil boiler which is rated for a good percentage less BTU output than the coal boiler "easily" fills his heating needs in mere minutes after it is turned on, and his coal boiler with a substantially greater "rated" BTU output can not do the job under any give time span. I question all of those who are insisting that a heat study is needed to determine the needs here when he already knows that his oil boiler is doing the job without even breaking a sweat. Then I question how a coal boiler claimed to be of a sizably greater BTU output than an oil boiler is nowhere near up to the task. On top of all of this I question why when he tosses wood into it the coal boiler suddenly turns into a heat monster, and it is likewise capable of heating sufficiently for all of his needs. I'll admit that I don't have answers, I only have questions (thus my confusion).
#'s are just that. As far as I know hand fed appliances are rated in the amount of coal they can theoreticaly burn in a given time. I do not belive this is achievable. My DS hand fed for example to be 130K BTU I would need to burn 240lbs of coal a day, this is not possible without overfiring. What is even more confusing is go to say Harmans website there woodstoves are around 50K BTU smaller than the coal stoves but they only heat 400sq ft less :? , So it would appear that btus are not btus, when comparing differant fuels. I asked this a year ago and am still confused

macdabs
Member
Posts: 142
Joined: Mon. Jan. 03, 2011 1:57 pm
Stoker Coal Boiler: AHS 260
Coal Size/Type: Pea
Other Heating: Pellet,oil
Stove/Furnace Make: AHS
Stove/Furnace Model: S260
Location: central Pa

Post Mon. Mar. 14, 2011 6:05 am

I installed the new Samson valve. Boiler temps have remained steady at 145* a 25 degree increase over previous . I can see the vent doors open when I bank the fire something that was unnoticable before with the other Samson valve. My shop has not called for heat most of the weekend since the temps were warmer and was already at 65 to start with. I bumped the temp to 69 yesterday and the boiler continued to stay at 140*. :) I am not going to get to excited since it was already 60 out yesterday and It took two wheel barrow loads of coal to get the boiler from 60* to 145*. I did see 160* for 25 min. mid afternoon Sunday :) . I should be able to get some pics of the firebox this week. And I know I need to install a Baro damper but, I have been averaging .04 with my draft with the MPD and need to get on the roof and lift 16 ft of double wall SS flue pipe to do it. :o .

Mac


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