Insulate those basement pipes!!

Reading through my "Modern Hydronic Heating" book I found a chart that gives BTU loss for exposed copper pipe (like in your basement), I didn't realize how high it was, for 3/4 it can be up to 55BTU/HR/foot and for 1" up to 70 (in a 120 degree difference between air temp and internal water temp).

This is a ton of heat! Considering the fact that many basements are basically heat sinks to the earth, this is an easy fix! I'm sure I have in excess of 30 feet of 3/4, 1" and even some 1 1/4" combined in my basement, if I go with the 3/4" heat loss this means I basically have a 3 foot finned baseboard (1500BTU) pushing heat out not only at every call but also bleeding out anything it can leech on the boiler side of the flow valves!

I for one will be getting some of that foam for my pipes for this winter! I remember watching an old black and white promotional about two similar households that had boilers and this was their main drive - insulate the basement pipes!

Anyone with any experience or favorite insulating products, I'm all ears! (except asbestos of course...since I can't buy it anymore ... )

Hum….. I wonder if PEX insulates to some degree…

Use the foil faced fiberglass pipe insulation. It works much better than the foam stuff from the hardware store.

I recommend these guys: https://www.buyinsulationproductstore.com/

I second that. insulated my primary loop with the foil faced fiberglass wrap. i have the black foam pool noodle looking stuff on the 1" pex going to the radiator feed and the garage loop and the 1/2" foam over the feeders. still warm down there lol.

Retro_Origin wrote: ↑

Sun. Aug. 27, 2023 7:32 pm

<SNIP>
for 3/4 it can be up to 55BTU/HR/foot and for 1" up to 70 (in a 120 degree difference between air temp and internal water temp).

OK, lets convert the BTU to something more useful - $$$, lets assume price of coal is $500/ton

55btu *( $2500/100*10^6 BTU) = $0.000025 (see fuel calc. result for 100 million BTU , 100*10^6)

Per month then the $ would be $0.000025*24 hr*30 days/hr*1 mo/30 days = $0.018

If you have 100 ft of 3/4 pipe, this would "cost" $1.8 a month (5 mo season = 10 bucks)

If insulating cost is $200 then you could take that 200 and put into 5% cd , earn 10 bucks a year. And still have that small amount of radiant heat heating your house. In such a case, I would not insulate.

davidmcbeth3 wrote: ↑

Mon. Aug. 28, 2023 7:38 am

OK, lets convert the BTU to something more useful - $$$, lets assume price of coal is $500/ton

55btu *( $2500/100*10^6 BTU) = $0.000025 (see fuel calc. result for 100 million BTU , 100*10^6)

Per month then the $ would be $0.000025*24 hr*30 days/hr*1 mo/30 days = $0.018

If you have 100 ft of 3/4 pipe, this would "cost" $1.8 a month (5 mo season = 10 bucks)

If insulating cost is $200 then you could take that 200 and put into 5% cd , earn 10 bucks a year. And still have that small amount of radiant heat heating your house. In such a case, I would not insulate.

While I can't argue with your math, in some cases it's more about doing it so it's done, reducing consumption and putting the heat where you want it isn't only about saving money put into the fuel itself but it's one of many battles to help the house cost less to heat, pay for it now while the money is there kinda thing... I think we all fight these battles differently and I no longer believe that "basement heat migrates into the house anyway" unless there are vents, or the foundation or basement is insulated... somewhere on here someone posted a research article about losing heat thru the basement walls from a stove as being much higher than you'd expect.

A BTU saved is a BTU earned. I say insulate the pipes

If someone decides on insulating their pipes now they can post a thread about the cost of doing so.

Maybe insulate 1/2 the pipes..

davidmcbeth3 wrote: ↑

Tue. Aug. 29, 2023 9:04 am

Maybe insulate 1/2 the pipes..7.gif

LOL that's a good one!

insulate the top half or the bottom half?

Retro_Origin wrote: ↑

Mon. Aug. 28, 2023 8:04 pm

While I can't argue with your math, in some cases it's more about doing it so it's done, reducing consumption and putting the heat where you want it isn't only about saving money put into the fuel itself but it's one of many battles to help the house cost less to heat, pay for it now while the money is there kinda thing... I think we all fight these battles differently and I no longer believe that "basement heat migrates into the house anyway" unless there are vents, or the foundation or basement is insulated... somewhere on here someone posted a research article about losing heat thru the basement walls from a stove as being much higher than you'd expect.

I have a similar view. I look at the system as a whole with the goal of having a comfortable house at a reasonable cost. When I first got my boiler installed my basement temperature would occasionally reach 80F. This caused some rooms to be overheated, and certainly didn't help my upright freezer in the basement. Insulating the coal boiler helped a lot, and probably had the best bang for the buck. Removing the oil boiler helped also, as it was acting like a radiator in the basement. The last thing I did was insulate the piping. I only insulated the copper and iron piping, and left all of the pex going to the radiators uninsulated. Now my basement stays 68-72 during the heating season, and the house is more comfortable. I'm sure the ROI on my pipe insulation is long, but if you look at the total cost of the system vs. cost of operation the numbers look good.

Rob R. wrote: ↑

Wed. Aug. 30, 2023 11:05 am

I have a similar view. I look at the system as a whole with the goal of having a comfortable house at a reasonable cost. When I first got my boiler installed my basement temperature would occasionally reach 80F. This caused some rooms to be overheated, and certainly didn't help my upright freezer in the basement. Insulating the coal boiler helped a lot, and probably had the best bang for the buck. Removing the oil boiler helped also, as it was acting like a radiator in the basement. The last thing I did was insulate the piping. I only insulated the copper and iron piping, and left all of the pex going to the radiators uninsulated. Now my basement stays 68-72 during the heating season, and the house is more comfortable. I'm sure the ROI on my pipe insulation is long, but if you look at the total cost of the system vs. cost of operation the numbers look good.

It also beats inflation, it will never cost you more to insulate if you do it now...

Retro_Origin wrote: ↑

Wed. Aug. 30, 2023 12:05 pm

It also beats inflation, it will never cost you more to insulate if you do it now...

Yes..but what is that cost? I wonder...I'll check on that soon.

I still have the receipt - mine was $120.

To insulate my converted gravity system's 2 and 2 1/2 inch pipes with just 1" fiberglass pipe insulation would be more than $1,500. Hard to justify that, especially with the washer and dryer down there. Wife wouldn't appreciate having to wear a parka to wash a load of clothes. Probably be better to try to insulate the basement walls...

I did insulate the near boiler loop between the coal and oil boilers. It's always hot so I figured it would give me the biggest bang for the buck.