Siemens Logo! PLC - Leisure Line

 
Black Rocks
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Post by Black Rocks » Wed. Apr. 26, 2023 5:09 pm

Hello,

Hasn't really been much recent discussion on this, but I've seen a few people like VermontDay (years ago) and others utilizing PLC's on the EFM520's for controlling the idle fire. I own a Leisure Line AA220, but the issue I have had for many years is maintaining the idle fire during warm and not so warm days. The Leisure Line AA220's idle fire system (at least mine) utilizes a set of timer relays and fan speed controls to control the idle fan speed, idle feed rate, and also set the number of minutes when the idle fan turns on and how long to run it for. With the price of oil so high, I was planning on trying to run this through the summer instead of switching to oil for DHW. Problem is with the settings required to keep the fire from going out on hot days, I run into constant dumps when it is cooler out or at night because there are no calls for heat. I have a very tall chimney, but perhaps it is not tall enough to create enough draft during hot days and I think my idle fan needs to over compensate for this which causes problems when it is cooler out.

I'd like to greatly reduce my coal usage and prevent dumping. My plan is to replace this with a Logo PLC! and then setup probes to monitor not only boiler temperature but also monitor the temperature on the exhaust of the boiler. So I'd like the idle circuit to run it's every 4 minutes (maybe even longer), but when the fan turns on, turn it off when the flue is hot enough. This way it knows that the fire is still lit and shuts it off. Then also monitor boiler temp to perform some safeguards while keeping my dump aqua stat separate but still monitored by the Logo!. Then also monitor this via HomeKit on my iPhone as there seems to be plugins via HomeBridge to do this.

People who are using PLC controllers for their EFM's, does anyone see any issues with this and am I overlooking anything? I assume the PLC is intelligent enough for me to be able to do this. How is the reliability, as the only thing I worry about is it crashing and having a continuous fire going. Manual relays seem to be pretty fool proof but you lack intelligence like what we should be able to get out of this PLC. I know I could probably also do something with a Raspberry Pi, but again I am concerned about reliability. It would be nice for this to be able to run on it's own without having to worry about it and survive power outages.

Any thoughts?


 
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davidmcbeth3
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Post by davidmcbeth3 » Wed. Apr. 26, 2023 8:02 pm

Taller chimney usually = better draft

There is likely a point where the draft is unchanged with higher than higher..if that makes sense

 
lzaharis
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Post by lzaharis » Wed. Apr. 26, 2023 11:26 pm

After reducing the hopper drawpoint size on my kaa-4-1 I have reduced my coal use a
great deal and I still have overshoots with my kaa-4-1.

My coal feed is a 12-14 threads out, my low limit is 150 and my high limit is 170.

My 30 minute hold fire timer runs 14 minutes every half hour in 4/3/4/3 in total otherwise my fire goes out.

I would do nothing more than shutting off one stoker and shutting the drawpoint on the half way on the operating stoker and shutting the other draw point off completely and shutting that stoker off and leaving everything else a on your AA-220 alone.

No need to overthink anything just cut your coal feed in half and shut the other stoker off.

 
Black Rocks
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Post by Black Rocks » Thu. Apr. 27, 2023 9:11 am

My high limit is 180, low limit 170, differential is 10. I'm only using one burner right now. Only use two burners when it is really cold out and the boiler can't keep up with the heat draw. Usually it has to be in the teens outside to need the second burner. It uses more coal on a single burner when it's that cold out than using both burners since it will stay running all night and never shut off. Right now, the only idle settings that will keep the fire going is turning on every 5 minutes and staying on for 60 seconds. I'm burning probably at least 35 pounds a day right now. I am sure this is more than most people burn to heat their house in the winter, but I'm just keeping the hot water warm for showers and dishes. While I'm wasting a lot of coal, I think this is still more economical than oil. I have to keep the boiler temperature that high in order to get hot water since I am now using the tankless coil. If you are careful with water usage when taking a shower and not turn the hot water too hot, you can take a medium to warm hot shower. If the boiler is below that in temperature, it is a cold shower after a few minutes. Yes I installed a mixing valve, lowered it so the hottest the water gets is like 118 degree out of the faucet when you first turn it on, and installed water reducing shower heads. I had a boiler mate, but it sprung a leak and seemed too expensive to replace vs just piping in the tankless coils. I think I was wrong on that, but it is what it is now.

Regardless I'm not sure I am over complicating things as there is no intelligence in my current system unless I go down and adjust the settings every day based on the upcoming daytime temperature. Maybe I should just do that like I was doing last year before giving up and switching back to oil, but when I forget, the fire goes out, and it takes about an hour to get everything back to normal from an out fire (cleaning out the burner, empty the ash pan, put in the starter metal thing, filling with wood pellets, lighting wood pellets, throwing coal on, adjusting feed rate, etc. waiting for coal fire to normalize and boiler to get up to temp, etc.). I really don't think I am going to find a setting that works for hot and cold days without adding intelligence to the controller.

 
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Post by Retro_Origin » Fri. Apr. 28, 2023 11:21 am

Have you talked to the manufacturer about your issue? I'm not familiar with your system but wouldn't the starting point be to determine timer settings required to keep the fire alive- then maybe slight increase if it can't catch up during a shower or something. Have you looked into a buffer tank? That would absorb your heat instead of letting it get dumped? Maybe? Surprised some of the more experienced boiler guys haven't suggested anything.

 
lzaharis
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Post by lzaharis » Sat. Apr. 29, 2023 10:33 am

You are not using that much coal, you just need to reduce the coal feed flow by closing the coal feed gate on the hopper for that stoker by half.

As I proved in my case, a flat grate stoker is benefited by reducing the amount of Anthracite Rice Coal that passes over the fire grates.

I use a Honeywell L8124L double aquastat to control the boiler and an L6006 single aquastat to control the
overheats to dump heat into the heating loop when needed and a B+G/McDonnel & Miller RB-122-E Low Water Cut Off.
I eliminated the digital Hydrostat 3250 Plus this boiler came with because it was defective and the second unit they sent to replace it was also defective.

The same amount of combustion air flowing under the fire grate is used to burn the smaller amount of coal nearly white hot sometimes creating very hot water and overshooting.

I have found that with the much, much smaller hopper opening a great deal of coal is still being pushed over the sides of the stoker even with the stoker set at 14 threads out.

I know I am losing unburned coal in the 4 gallon pail. I can just imagine how much unburned coal I have lost in the last 7 years since the coal stoker was installed as it amounts to 2 bags(80 pounds) a week during the heating season based on how much unburned coal I scoop back up.

I honestly think that 1. the air flow should be directed back towards the coal stoker rather than simply upward through the fire grates by drilling the last 2 rows of combustion air holes in the end of the grates at a 30 degree angle to direct the combustion air back toward the hopper rather than upward.

2. the length of the channel iron that is bolted to the inner side walls of the stoker and used to reduce the amount of coal that spills over the side of the stoker should be lengthened.

 
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Post by waytomany?s » Sat. Apr. 29, 2023 6:09 pm

lzaharis wrote:
Sat. Apr. 29, 2023 10:33 am
You are not using that much coal, you just need to reduce the coal feed flow by closing the coal feed gate on the hopper for that stoker by half.

As I proved in my case, a flat grate stoker is benefited by reducing the amount of Anthracite Rice Coal that passes over the fire grates.

I use a Honeywell L8124L double aquastat to control the boiler and an L6006 single aquastat to control the
overheats to dump heat into the heating loop when needed and a B+G/McDonnel & Miller RB-122-E Low Water Cut Off.
I eliminated the digital Hydrostat 3250 Plus this boiler came with because it was defective and the second unit they sent to replace it was also defective.

The same amount of combustion air flowing under the fire grate is used to burn the smaller amount of coal nearly white hot sometimes creating very hot water and overshooting.

I have found that with the much, much smaller hopper opening a great deal of coal is still being pushed over the sides of the stoker even with the stoker set at 14 threads out.

I know I am losing unburned coal in the 4 gallon pail. I can just imagine how much unburned coal I have lost in the last 7 years since the coal stoker was installed as it amounts to 2 bags(80 pounds) a week during the heating season based on how much unburned coal I scoop back up.

I honestly think that 1. the air flow should be directed back towards the coal stoker rather than simply upward through the fire grates by drilling the last 2 rows of combustion air holes in the end of the grates at a 30 degree angle to direct the combustion air back toward the hopper rather than upward.

2. the length of the channel iron that is bolted to the inner side walls of the stoker and used to reduce the amount of coal that spills over the side of the stoker should be lengthened.
Any chance you have a picture to show what you mean?


 
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Post by StokerDon » Sat. Apr. 29, 2023 6:48 pm

Black Rocks wrote:
Thu. Apr. 27, 2023 9:11 am
Right now, the only idle settings that will keep the fire going is turning on every 5 minutes and staying on for 60 seconds.
1 minute every 5 to 8 minutes is very typical for your type of stoker. Adding new controls won't change that. Also, if your feed rate and air are set correctly, new controls won't change your fuel consumption.

But if you want to play with something some of us use the Iknkbird ITC-106 VH. You can get them on Amazon pretty cheap ~30 bucks or so.

Here is a video describing how I set 2 of them up to control the ashing on my Axeman. I also have one controlling the boiler temp.


There not PLC's so you don't have to write a script to use them.

-Don

 
lzaharis
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Post by lzaharis » Sun. Apr. 30, 2023 12:31 am

No I do not have any pictures of my set up but if you close the
feed gate by half or more you will have immediate results.

 
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Post by waytomany?s » Sun. Apr. 30, 2023 8:40 am

lzaharis wrote:
Sun. Apr. 30, 2023 12:31 am
No I do not have any pictures of my set up but if you close the
feed gate by half or more you will have immediate results.
I understand that part. Can't picture what you mean about lengthening the angle iron to reduce spillage.

 
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Post by lzaharis » Sun. Apr. 30, 2023 10:00 am

There is a short piece of channel iron bolted to the top of flat grate stoker to hold the coal in place as it is pushed forward on to the stokers firebed. I am not sure if your stokers fire beds have this piece of channel iron attached to it.

The stokers would be removed from the fire box and the old pieces of steel removed and the new longer channel iron put in place of it.

Right now my stoker is set with 15 threads out on the feed rate and it is slow and still spilling coal off the sides.

 
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Post by lzaharis » Mon. May. 01, 2023 9:54 am

Hello Blackrocks,

Have you closed the feed gate lower on the operating stoker
and slowed down the coal feed rate yet?

Just as a reference for you I am using fifty pounds a day and
generating 4 gallons of dead ash and fly ash.

I will be adding more flat stock to close off more of the hopper
throat this week as it is supposed to rain all week and also be cold.

 
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Post by Black Rocks » Fri. May. 12, 2023 6:06 pm

Sorry for being slow to respond. I can adjust the feed rate on the stoker if that accomplishes the same goal. I had to increase my timer to on 60 seconds every 4 minutes as the fire was going out. The problem though is sometimes it dumps just running idle during the day and that is what I want to stop. Ideally it should never dump. If it’s dumping, the boiler is too hot from the fire running too long. If it’s a cooler day and no calls for heat, it will dump because the draft is higher. But I need to keep those settings or else it will go out on a warmer day. That was more or less my goal with wanting to come up with a system that keeps the fire under control by measuring the flue temperature with the idle fan comes on. I had talked to Leisure Line, they suggest that the balancer would prevent that, but it doesn’t. They basically suggest coming up with an idle setting when there is no call for heat and let it run. Once you figure out what that is, you are good to go. But the outside temperature affects that, so this isn’t a solution for me.

 
lzaharis
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Post by lzaharis » Fri. May. 12, 2023 7:35 pm

Adjusting the feed rate will not help, you need to lower the feed gate
to reduce coal flow volume.

If the gate if fully open your stoker is pushing all that coal forward.

With my keystoker I have the hopper throat reduced by 2/3's but gravity is
still letting a great deal of coal through filling the stoker to the top of the
side plates and unburned coal spills over the sides.

 
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Post by nepacoal » Fri. May. 12, 2023 8:38 pm

lzaharis wrote:
Fri. May. 12, 2023 7:35 pm
Adjusting the feed rate will not help, you need to lower the feed gate
to reduce coal flow volume.

If the gate if fully open your stoker is pushing all that coal forward.

With my keystoker I have the hopper throat reduced by 2/3's but gravity is
still letting a great deal of coal through filling the stoker to the top of the
side plates and unburned coal spills over the sides.
I've been running my kaa-4 non-stop for 7 years and have never had any unburnt coal spilling over the sides of the grates. I find 1 or maybe 2 pieces of unburnt coal per month and I'm pretty sure those are caused by exploding pieces in the fire, not by being pushed over the edge.

Is your boiler level front to back? What you describe happening really sounds like your grates are sloping up. I remember you had a horrible installation and I suspect that your stoker is slightly angled up. It would not take much of an angle to cause problems.


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