The Epoch of the Axeman

 
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Lightning
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Post by Lightning » Wed. May. 25, 2022 5:23 pm

Wow... I have what I think are some very impressive results in my first run of the numbers with buckwheat coal. This was a 10 day period only filling one ash tub. Normally, I would run numbers at two full ash tubs, but evidently that's taking too long lol.

So to start with, this 10 day period averaged 59 degrees. There were some hot days along with a few nights that required a little home heating. We also heated the outbuilding a couple times. Average daily coal consumption was 26.6 pounds per day, a new record for least used.

What really blew my mind was the low ash vs coal used percentage at 10.5%.. I was expecting that to be much higher. Pea size was climbing up to 15% in warmer weather.

I really like how the buckwheat size is responding to the low demand and I'm probably gonna use it for the cold months also. Being this was my first run of the numbers with buckwheat, things might change.. but hopefully I keep seeing good results with it.

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Retro_Origin
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Post by Retro_Origin » Wed. May. 25, 2022 7:24 pm

Nice! Is that ash tub unburnt pea with new buck ash on top or is it all from the buck?

 
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Lightning
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Post by Lightning » Wed. May. 25, 2022 9:04 pm

Retro_Origin wrote:
Wed. May. 25, 2022 7:24 pm
Nice! Is that ash tub unburnt pea with new buck ash on top or is it all from the buck?
I noticed the changeover from pea to buck in the ash tub about 2 days into this 10 day period.

 
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Retro_Origin
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Post by Retro_Origin » Sun. May. 29, 2022 3:18 pm

Lee, if I understand your figures youre using an average of 26lbs/day for domestic?
As some people published a bit ago here they were under 10/lbs on some EFM's. My KA6 is about 15-20lbs a day, but I don't have any covers, and you don't either I believe. A guy I was talking to said he puts in about a bucket every 4-5 days in his EFM..that would be well below 10 lbs a day. My boiler is I think 55gal so it makes sense that without the covers it would take more to keep up to temp, but the AA is about 25 gallons right? My only guess is the small size bed that the pot style can maintain and probably get more of a full burn than my flate grate.

Does that sound right? 15lbs is about 187,500 BTU (for real good stuff I guess) which would be about 2 gal of propane. AVG usage according to google is 1.5 gal for a HWH. So those numbers seem pretty close since the efficiency and complete burn concept will be less than optimum for summer running. My math may be off there.

 
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Post by Rob R. » Sun. May. 29, 2022 5:14 pm

Retro_Origin wrote:
Sun. May. 29, 2022 3:18 pm
Lee, if I understand your figures youre using an average of 26lbs/day for domestic?
As some people published a bit ago here they were under 10/lbs on some EFM's. My KA6 is about 15-20lbs a day, but I don't have any covers, and you don't either I believe. A guy I was talking to said he puts in about a bucket every 4-5 days in his EFM..that would be well below 10 lbs a day. My boiler is I think 55gal so it makes sense that without the covers it would take more to keep up to temp, but the AA is about 25 gallons right? My only guess is the small size bed that the pot style can maintain and probably get more of a full burn than my flate grate.

Does that sound right? 15lbs is about 187,500 BTU (for real good stuff I guess) which would be about 2 gal of propane. AVG usage according to google is 1.5 gal for a HWH. So those numbers seem pretty close since the efficiency and complete burn concept will be less than optimum for summer running. My math may be off there.
Anyone claiming <10 lbs per day with an EFM likely is not measuring their coal consumption very accurately. I am not saying it is impossible, but it would require a perfect chimney, a very well insulated boiler, and little to no use of DHW.

The normal timer cycle for an EFM is 2 minutes every half hour. On 4 teeth of feed, that is about 15 lbs per day. Add 2-4 people using hot water and that will be another 5-10 lbs.

 
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Post by Lightning » Sun. May. 29, 2022 9:31 pm

Retro_Origin wrote:
Sun. May. 29, 2022 3:18 pm
but I don't have any covers, and you don't either I believe.
By covers, you mean insulation of the boiler vessel? Yes I did insulate the vessel with a black foam rubber with foil on the exterior. It has a sticky side that adheres to the steel. It's used in the auto industry. It's not quite a half inch thick. I also insulated the black iron piping. It keeps the basement temperature more comfortable in the mid 70s instead of the high 80s.

But I do still have the circ running which pushes water thru the water to air exchanger. It does bleed some heat, but not much without the furnace blower pushing air thru it.
Retro_Origin wrote:
Sun. May. 29, 2022 3:18 pm
Lee, if I understand your figures youre using an average of 26lbs/day for domestic?
Yes, but we did also have some home heating during that measurement period. Not very much, just a few cool nights worth.
Retro_Origin wrote:
Sun. May. 29, 2022 3:18 pm
but the AA is about 25 gallons right?
Yes, close to that, might be 22 gallons of I recall correctly.

I'm mainly interested in breaking even with electric. Given that electric is over 5 times more expensive to heat with than coal, I've done the math to determine that using 20-25 pounds per day will break even for DHW only. The added benefits are a dryer basement and inhibited corrosion of the boiler. So basically since electric is 5Xs more, I can go down to 20% efficientcy. Which the last measurement period shows.. since I used 266 pounds, only 40 pounds was actually used for heating domestic water which is 15% efficient BUT that does include some home heating so it's actually closer to 20%.. I realize that seems like terrible efficiency but it's still worth doing.

 
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Post by hotblast1357 » Sun. May. 29, 2022 11:02 pm

How much more will your a/c units run upstairs with the added heat in the basement? Just my manifolds in my basement will drastically over heat the rooms above it, I couldn’t imagine the boiler being downstairs!


 
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Post by Retro_Origin » Mon. May. 30, 2022 8:35 am

Rob R. wrote:
Sun. May. 29, 2022 5:14 pm
Anyone claiming <10 lbs per day with an EFM likely is not measuring their coal consumption very accurately. I am not saying it is impossible, but it would require a perfect chimney, a very well insulated boiler, and little to no use of DHW.

The normal timer cycle for an EFM is 2 minutes every half hour. On 4 teeth of feed, that is about 15 lbs per day. Add 2-4 people using hot water and that will be another 5-10 lbs.
Well this individual has told me other usage numbers during the winter that were suspicious. I think maybe he's just speaking off the cuff from memory rather than measurable. I think he told me he's never adjusted the feedrate, and he does have 6 in the household haha. My boiler runs 1 1/2 minutes every half hour, but over time the temp eventually drops and it gets a good 15-25 minute run to get it back to temp. Should I increase my timer a hair or is it better to get that 'actual' run every now and then?

 
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Post by Lightning » Mon. May. 30, 2022 8:58 am

hotblast1357 wrote:
Sun. May. 29, 2022 11:02 pm
How much more will your a/c units run upstairs with the added heat in the basement? Just my manifolds in my basement will drastically over heat the rooms above it, I couldn’t imagine the boiler being downstairs!
Since insulating the boiler and piping (manifolds also) the standby loss has been cut down significantly. Its difficult to quantity, but my best guess would be about 75%. I also have vents open at each end of the basement to help chimney draft and the open vents will help keep heat from accumulating in the basement.. So in lieu of those things, I don't expect very much influence to the house from the boiler underneath.

I can also cut back the boiler temp some, it's currently set at 165.

 
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Post by StokerDon » Mon. May. 30, 2022 9:31 am

Retro_Origin wrote:
Mon. May. 30, 2022 8:35 am
My boiler runs 1 1/2 minutes every half hour,
Your Keystoker timer runs 1 1/2 minutes every half hour and the fire doesn't go out? I've never been able to get a flat grate stoker to go more than 10-12 minutes without loosing the fire.

-Don

 
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Post by Lightning » Thu. Jun. 02, 2022 5:55 pm

I've been watching the exhaust temperature during idle lately.. and it "seems" that the boiler temperature doesn't influence it very much.. Given that, a thought that occurred to me to prevent out fires is to trigger the fan to run when the exhaust temperature falls to 160 degrees and run it up to 180 degrees. To me, this seems more appropriate than a timer because it takes into account the health of the fire more so than a timer would. So far, since running buckwheat size there hasn't been any out fires. BUT, I would like to install a bypass so that I'm not pushing water thru the water to air heat exchanger to see if I can get a little better coal mileage for summertime DHW. Which, could result in the tipping point for out fires. It appears that the exhaust temperature falls under 160 about 30-45 minutes after a fan run, which is good timing to fluff the fire.

As it stands currently, I'm seeing a little less than 25 pounds per day but I think some improvement can be had..

I still have the old faithful high limit aquastat in place if the water temperature is too high for the fan to run..

Feel free to reply with your thoughts :)

 
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Post by Retro_Origin » Thu. Jun. 02, 2022 7:31 pm

StokerDon wrote:
Mon. May. 30, 2022 9:31 am
Your Keystoker timer runs 1 1/2 minutes every half hour and the fire doesn't go out? I've never been able to get a flat grate stoker to go more than 10-12 minutes without loosing the fire.

-Don
Hmm, thought I replied to this...guess not! Sometimes I do notice the fire looking pretty dormant, so I'm getting the COALPAIL recommended solid state timer so I can try to set it for 1 min every 12 minutes to help. Also burning buck it does feed a bit faster than rice. So far I haven't even had an outfire with buck.

Lightning wrote:
Thu. Jun. 02, 2022 5:55 pm
I've been watching the exhaust temperature during idle lately.. and it "seems" that the boiler temperature doesn't influence it very much.. Given that, a thought that occurred to me to prevent out fires is to trigger the fan to run when the exhaust temperature falls to 160 degrees and run it up to 180 degrees. To me, this seems more appropriate than a timer because it takes into account the health of the fire more so than a timer would. So far, since running buckwheat size there hasn't been any out fires. BUT, I would like to install a bypass so that I'm not pushing water thru the water to air heat exchanger to see if I can get a little better coal mileage for summertime DHW. Which, could result in the tipping point for out fires. It appears that the exhaust temperature falls under 160 about 30-45 minutes after a fan run, which is good timing to fluff the fire.

As it stands currently, I'm seeing a little less than 25 pounds per day but I think some improvement can be had..

I still have the old faithful high limit aquastat in place if the water temperature is too high for the fan to run..

Feel free to reply with your thoughts :)
I'm guessing your 25lbs is more unburnt than ash, remind me again what your finds have been when you lower the ashing temperature or clicks? I understand the fire will go thin, but does it actually go out?

 
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Post by Lightning » Thu. Jun. 02, 2022 8:18 pm

Retro_Origin wrote:
Thu. Jun. 02, 2022 7:31 pm
I'm guessing your 25lbs is more unburnt than ash,
According to my last run of the numbers, my coal vs ash percentage was only 10.5% which is pretty phenomenal. This deduces that only 1.5%-2% is unburned coal going out with the ashes. We'll see if that trend continues with future measurements.
Retro_Origin wrote:
Thu. Jun. 02, 2022 7:31 pm
remind me again what your finds have been when you lower the ashing temperature or clicks? I understand the fire will go thin, but does it actually go out?
I actually upped the ratchet to 2 sometimes 3 clicks (clicks = ashing speed) since it hardly gets any ashing time with the low heat demand. That's a preventative measure to keep the fire from getting too thin which leads to it becoming unstable to out fires. So far that seems to be doing the trick.

 
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Lightning
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Post by Lightning » Thu. Jun. 02, 2022 8:49 pm

Case in point, the pic below is the temperatures directly after a boiler water "maintenance" call with no heat or DHW demand. You can see that it hardly gets going and then the combustion fan shuts off. This is because of the tight 1 degree differential I'm running on the boiler water. The tight differential forces the fan to run more often to keep the fire healthy.

The ashing solenoid is triggered by the ashing temperature (below 110) AND the exhaust temp (above 220). Only if both conditions are met, it will run the ash sled. From what I've observed, this keeps the fire sandwiched in the middle of the fuel bed with ash underneath and fresh coal on top. Until someone runs a long shower, at which point the fire comes up towards the top of the fuel bed and the exhaust gases reach 400-450 degrees. When this happens, the Axe has reached it's full BTU output burn. It makes full output burn a couple times per day roughly.

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Post by Retro_Origin » Thu. Jun. 02, 2022 9:00 pm

Great info. I like the fan running without the ashing.

So since you have some outstanding coal/ash ratio is there really any argument for 'waste'/'excessive' coal consumption? You're getting almost all the available BTU's from your fuel so you're either losing it to the basement or it's going into your water (what you want), what kind of improvement is realistic beyond what you've got?


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