AA220 Coal consumption

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Frank F
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Post by Frank F » Thu. Nov. 14, 2019 8:27 pm

A lot of you guys have helped me get my coal boiler installed over the last year or so. Well I have another issue that I'm trying to figure out. I'm burning alot of coal. Roughly 120# per 24hr period.

I'm heating a fairly new 2700sqft home. ( I have not completed a heat calculation, not really sure how too).

The main loop 1-1/4 thermopex runs to the house 130' one way, circulator runs 24/7. Looks like I'm only loosing a degree on the trip, or at least it's within the tolerance of the temperature guages so I don't see a difference. Then I have two zones one is 1" copper to the gas furnace plenum heat exchanger 10' round trip. And the other is 3/4 pex to DOM Water 10' round trip.

Niether seem to be calling for heat often, but I just ordered an HR meter to monitor the idle time.

- I have my low temp set to 170 and my high temp to 180.
- my boiler is located in a insulated room in my pole barn. 130 ft 1 way. 6" of rockwool. Room is 10*12*10h.
-10' stove pipe inside boiler room and 14' tripple wall on top of that. Draft for chimney and cabinet is where liesureline recommends.
-I only have one burner going and I wonder if it's not enough to maintain 170.

Can I lower the low temp to say 155 so the boiler has the ability to idle when house isn't calling for heat?

It seems like the house is satisfied and boiler is idling often, at least when I'm checking it. Ill have better numbers when the hour meter is installed.


 
Frank F
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Post by Frank F » Thu. Nov. 14, 2019 8:29 pm

Boiler pic

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Frank F
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Post by Frank F » Thu. Nov. 14, 2019 8:33 pm

Frank F wrote:
Thu. Nov. 14, 2019 8:29 pm
Boiler pic

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Rob R.
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Post by Rob R. » Thu. Nov. 14, 2019 8:57 pm

Hi Frank - I am not sure what to think about only running one stoker. It probably saves coal when the boiler is idling, but the efficiency of the boiler heat exchanger might not be as good under load. It would be easy enough to light the second stoker and see how it does. Also take a look at the fire appearance after a good 20-30 minute burn - the fire should be almost to the end of the air holes on the grate.

The other thing you can do is run the circulator between the house and the boiler only when there is a heat call; this will reduce the heat lost to the ground. I would also add some insulation to the piping in the boiler room.

If it has been cold & windy you are not doing too bad considering what you are heating. Do you have an idea of how much propane you burned previously?

 
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Post by Frank F » Thu. Nov. 14, 2019 9:06 pm

Rob R. wrote:
Thu. Nov. 14, 2019 8:57 pm
Hi Frank - I am not sure what to think about only running one stoker. It probably saves coal when the boiler is idling, but the efficiency of the boiler heat exchanger might not be as good under load. It would be easy enough to light the second stoker and see how it does. Also take a look at the fire appearance after a good 20-30 minute burn - the fire should be almost to the end of the air holes on the grate.

The other thing you can do is run the circulator between the house and the boiler only when there is a heat call; this will reduce the heat lost to the ground. I would also add some insulation to the piping in the boiler room.

If it has been cold & windy you are not doing too bad considering what you are heating. Do you have an idea of how much propane you burned previously?
As far as propane I can't remember. I'm going to call our company tomorrow to figure out how many gallons were used.

Assuming it's cold all winter that puts me at 10.8t ish of coal per year. Seems like alot. I'll be paying about what I did for propane. I think I spent 2700 on propane last winter. I'm getting coal for 250 per Ton delivered.

My stepdad has the liesureline burners installed in a homeade boiler with to coils inside. He is heating a 3800sgft pole barn with no issues. Burning half the coal I am.

 
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Rob R.
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Post by Rob R. » Thu. Nov. 14, 2019 9:12 pm

Can you shutdown your underground loop for 24 hours and see how much the boiler uses? Then turn the loop back on without the heat exchanger and hot water and see how much coal you use.

 
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Post by Frank F » Thu. Nov. 14, 2019 9:17 pm

Rob R. wrote:
Thu. Nov. 14, 2019 9:12 pm
Can you shutdown your underground loop for 24 hours and see how much the boiler uses? Then turn the loop back on without the heat exchanger and hot water and see how much coal you use.
I probably could do that. What are the optimal temps to set low and high limit at. Also. If I shut main loop that isolates the boiler so there is no circulator. Do I have to worries about over temp and PRV over pressures? Sorry, new to this, always scary trying dif things I'm ignorant with.


 
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Rob R.
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Post by Rob R. » Thu. Nov. 14, 2019 9:33 pm

Do you have a dump zone hooked up? If it is in the house, it will be of no use while that pex loop is shut off. The high limit control on the boiler should keep it at a manageable temperature, but it would be wise to keep an eye on it until you know how it behaves.

 
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Post by Frank F » Thu. Nov. 14, 2019 9:39 pm

Rob R. wrote:
Thu. Nov. 14, 2019 9:33 pm
Do you have a dump zone hooked up? If it is in the house, it will be of no use while that pex loop is shut off. The high limit control on the boiler should keep it at a manageable temperature, but it would be wise to keep an eye on it until you know how it behaves.
Yes dump zone is inside. Should I leave it at low limit170 and high limit180. I'll have to do this next weekend as I have to work this weekend

 
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Post by McGiever » Thu. Nov. 14, 2019 10:17 pm

I wouldn't think it was designed to run off one burner...two burners would never use any additional coal than what the load requires.
What does the manual say about number of burners to use...or are they being intentionally ambiguous about this?.
With only one burner running what happens with the other idle burner...if not plugged by coal that would leave a pretty big hole to the outside of fire box.

 
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Post by Frank F » Thu. Nov. 14, 2019 10:45 pm

McGiever wrote:
Thu. Nov. 14, 2019 10:17 pm
I wouldn't think it was designed to run off one burner...two burners would never use any additional coal than what the load requires.
What does the manual say about number of burners to use...or are they being intentionally ambiguous about this?.
With only one burner running what happens with the other idle burner...if not plugged by coal that would leave a pretty big hole to the outside of fire box.
It's designed to run on a single or on both. I confirmed this with Matt at liesure line. Initially I was told to buy the 110 unit but I opted for the 220 so in the future I could heat the pole barn as well.

After talking with Matt I am saving coal if the boiler is in idle alot. If both burners are in idle then I'm burning twice the amount of coal. At least that is what I'm thinking. But I'll know how often they idle when I hook up the hour meter. Definitely think I'm doing something wrong so o appreciate everyone's thoughts.

 
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swyman
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Post by swyman » Fri. Nov. 15, 2019 12:33 am

Frank, I have experienced the same thing with similar conditions when my boiler was in the barn and running through ThermoPex. I would be interested in seeing your results if you fire up the second stoker because when I do that everything changes. With one stoker running on mine I can set it up to throw fire to the the top of the chamber. When I run both stokers I have to tame them down as I cannot produce enough draft with the power vent to run them that hard. With you having a chimney I would like to see your draft results when the time comes. One of my first posts touched on exactly the issues you are currently having, I was using #120 plus a day also in mild temps. I was very, very frustrated in the consumption of this when I first installed it, but don't get me wrong, I still go through a lot of coal in a season (12 ton last year) but I also have a lot of heat load and one of those loops (like you) has 200' of ThermoPex that goes out to the barn and back. This thread sounds identical to mine when I first installed mine and I pissed off a lot of people that were trying to help so keep an open mind and your cool if you can. Coming off a outdoor wood boiler I had a lot of expectations for this coal boiler but they turned out to be two totally different animals. Read through this thread if you want and some of the topics will probably relate. Hope it can help and I will continue to answer any and all questions/concerns as honestly as possible. This forum has some really great knowledgeable people but I know how frustrated it can be if you had the same expectations I did. How Much You Burning in Your Boiler Right Now?

 
Frank F
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Post by Frank F » Fri. Nov. 15, 2019 5:20 am

swyman wrote:
Fri. Nov. 15, 2019 12:33 am
Frank, I have experienced the same thing with similar conditions when my boiler was in the barn and running through ThermoPex. I would be interested in seeing your results if you fire up the second stoker because when I do that everything changes. With one stoker running on mine I can set it up to throw fire to the the top of the chamber. When I run both stokers I have to tame them down as I cannot produce enough draft with the power vent to run them that hard. With you having a chimney I would like to see your draft results when the time comes. One of my first posts touched on exactly the issues you are currently having, I was using #120 plus a day also in mild temps. I was very, very frustrated in the consumption of this when I first installed it, but don't get me wrong, I still go through a lot of coal in a season (12 ton last year) but I also have a lot of heat load and one of those loops (like you) has 200' of ThermoPex that goes out to the barn and back. This thread sounds identical to mine when I first installed mine and I pissed off a lot of people that were trying to help so keep an open mind and your cool if you can. Coming off a outdoor wood boiler I had a lot of expectations for this coal boiler but they turned out to be two totally different animals. Read through this thread if you want and some of the topics will probably relate. Hope it can help and I will continue to answer any and all questions/concerns as honestly as possible. This forum has some really great knowledgeable people but I know how frustrated it can be if you had the same expectations I did. How Much You Burning in Your Boiler Right Now?
I'm not the best writer, I hope I don't piss anyone off. I do value all off the experience. I am new to this and have spent alot of cash to get this going so I can save money. At this point it looks like I'm not going to save anything except for add more work.

I'm going to give what Rob said a try. And see if I can determine what is eating up my coal.

I will also try firing up both burners and see if that has different results.

I have a friend that just installed a keystoker 288 or something like that. Same situation as mine. He is burning one 5 gal pail a day I am being told, so I really believe I chose the wrong boiler.

My stepdad has same burners but built his own heat exchanger. Just put to sets of coils above the fire. Lot less of a volume of water. He is heating 3800 sqft pole barn on one to two 5 gal bucket a day. Boiler is located in the barn though, but he is pulling tractor trailers in and out all day long.

I've read most of your post, and I believe I was having false hopes. Thinking I was going to have different results because I ran 1-1/4 thermopex and have a chimney.

Very distracting to spent $13,000 building a system so you can save money in the long run. And as of right now I think the cost will be the same as propane.

 
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swyman
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Post by swyman » Fri. Nov. 15, 2019 7:01 am

You didn't piss anyone off, I did. I was so mad at how much this system was burning and like you my neighbors have the 110k LL furnace and burning very little compared to me but I have a much larger heat load. I feel the same as you regarding getting the wrong boiler as it was a huge expense buying new. I have recently purchased a Axeman Anderson 260M boiler which is supposed to be an animal but haven't got it lit yet. Another problem I encountered is I can only get this thing to burn about 12lbs per hour and to get the output this boiler is advertised for I would need to be able to burn 18lbs per hour. That could be because of the power vent but I have yet to get a chimney so that is still unknown. Another issue was until you showed up, I was the only one with this particular boiler so I had no one to compare with. Overall I have accepted what I have, kind of hard not to with the expense involved and I feel I have it running about as good as anyone could. Have made huge strides with the help of this forums members and hopefully when I get the other boiler online I will have the capacity I was expecting.

 
Frank F
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Post by Frank F » Fri. Nov. 15, 2019 12:09 pm

swyman wrote:
Fri. Nov. 15, 2019 7:01 am
You didn't piss anyone off, I did. I was so mad at how much this system was burning and like you my neighbors have the 110k LL furnace and burning very little compared to me but I have a much larger heat load. I feel the same as you regarding getting the wrong boiler as it was a huge expense buying new. I have recently purchased a Axeman Anderson 260M boiler which is supposed to be an animal but haven't got it lit yet. Another problem I encountered is I can only get this thing to burn about 12lbs per hour and to get the output this boiler is advertised for I would need to be able to burn 18lbs per hour. That could be because of the power vent but I have yet to get a chimney so that is still unknown. Another issue was until you showed up, I was the only one with this particular boiler so I had no one to compare with. Overall I have accepted what I have, kind of hard not to with the expense involved and I feel I have it running about as good as anyone could. Have made huge strides with the help of this forums members and hopefully when I get the other boiler online I will have the capacity I was expecting.
Did you notice a difference after insulating the boiler better? I noticed your pics.


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