Can not keep Keystoker lit

Shamokinfolk · Post by **Shamokinfolk** » Fri. Sep. 06, 2019 8:13 am

I have been having so much trouble with my coal/oil boiler lately. In the last 3 months, the coal fire has gone out close to a dozen times. I have swept out everything more than once (including the grates under the feed, pipes, chimney entrance, and firebox) but it persists in going out. The second-to-last time it went out I adjusted the blower motor resistor about 1/16" to the left and it stayed on for about 2 weeks then went out again last night. Exhausted and frustrated I figure I would switch back to oil for simplicity's sake.
I made sure the chamber was clear of insulation, blew out the chamber with air to clear any residual dust, bled the line, replaced the filter, bled the line again, and it will not stay lit. The initial primer cycle runs to bleed the line, then I switch it to normal cycle. It ignites and indicates a flame briefly (I can also see the flame) then after roughly 5 seconds, it quits. I bled the line and cycled through 10 times at least, but it would not stay lit. This is all with the thermostat turned all the way up, so it's calling foe heat. I ended up having to pull out the injector again, stuff the insulation back in, and go back to the inexplicably unreliable coal so I could take a hot shower at least. It's been a nightmare, and I'm constantly worried that fire is going to go out, and I'll come home to an ash bucket/firebox full of coal.
Any advice would be greatly appreciated. I'm essentially a novice when it comes to machinery like this, and the previous owner was the one who directed me to the resistor fix.

nepacoal · Post by **nepacoal** » Fri. Sep. 06, 2019 8:20 am

On my kaa-4, the only time I had an outfire was due to too much flyash in the exhaust breech and stove pipe... since then, i check and vacuum the breech from inside the stove every 2 months or so and have not had any issues. My timer is set for 52 seconds every 10 minutes.

How high is your chimney?

Shamokinfolk · Post by **Shamokinfolk** » Fri. Sep. 06, 2019 8:46 am

From the breech to the wall: roughly 5'5"
Chimney itself is to the roof of my 2 story house, so maybe 25'
I just vacuumed out everything completely 2 weeks ago.

Post by **StokerDon** » Fri. Sep. 06, 2019 9:18 am

It sounds like you might be loosing your draft, what is the draft reading?

Have you looked up the chimney to see if it is clear? Critters can make nests in a chimney pretty quick, this will kill your draft and would explain why the oil burner won't run.

-Don

Shamokinfolk · Post by **Shamokinfolk** » Fri. Sep. 06, 2019 9:29 am

I'm not sure how to gauge the draft. I assume that there's a tool for that, but I can feel the air moving in the pipe when the fire's out. I just had a guy at work tell me to check the tip for the gun assembly, and maybe empty the hopper to see if there's a rock messing with the feed. I'm so tired of this thing I'm considering just buying a gross of blankets for the winter haha

McGiever · Post by **McGiever** » Fri. Sep. 06, 2019 9:47 am

Aside from chimney troubles, another area to check...
The 'hold fire timer' may need checked real close to verify it's correct and reliable cycle.

Oil burner cycle has a photo sensor that needs to verify seeing a flame within a few seconds or will trip off...replacement is simple and not expensive.

Qtown1835 · Post by **Qtown1835** » Fri. Sep. 06, 2019 9:48 am

My 2 cents. I have an older keystoker, hot humid days would be a bear to keep the boiler going. You many need to shorten the timer cycles to keep the coal bed hot in order to maintain draft. If you dont have a manometer, you should get one. That is the key to monitoring your draft, without one you are just guessing. The oil burner should be a no brainer to get it going. First order of business would be to make sure you have enough oil in the tank, sounds stupid but the pick up for the oil will be off the bottom of the tank so if you are @ or less than 1/4 tank you may have issues. Could be that the dip tube is cracked or broken as well. I had one that was cracked just below the gage and it would suck air. Check all of the lines heading to the burner and make sure the fittings are snug and the line are free of kinks. Next replace the filter and see what happens. Then check your CAD cell to make sure its clean and functioning properly. After that it could be a pump issue. Is it a single line or double line system?

nepacoal · Post by **nepacoal** » Fri. Sep. 06, 2019 10:23 am

So for coal...
1. Was it used for heat last winter and was the feed setting set properly for 1.5 to 2 inches of ash after a 30 to 45 minute burn?
2. Is your timer set to approximately 1 minute to 1.25 minutes every 10 minutes. Equates to 3 to 5 pins on an intermatic timer
3. Do you have approximately 1.5 to 2 inches of burning coal after each timer cycle?

Shamokinfolk · Post by **Shamokinfolk** » Fri. Sep. 06, 2019 10:50 am

A lot of this stuff you all are asking for, I'm terribly unfamiliar with. I'm at work right now, so I can't be sure of a lot things, but I will answer what I can for now.

For Coal:
It was used for heat last winter, but I only bought the house last summer and have no experience with this type of thing. I didn't adjust feeds or anything (not sure how to honestly) There was probably 1.5-2" of ash during the winter, that sounds about right, but now it's more than that I'd say.

I think the timer is set for 1 minute, and there's definitely at least 3 pins at each interval, possibly more.

With oil:
I am at 1/4 tank.
Just replaced filter last night.
Dip tube? idk I thought that was for upright water heaters haha (I'm mostly clueless)
Line seemed good last night, no obvious leaks and no kinks.
Is the CAD cell the gun assembly? If so, it's a bit rusty but looked clean, and when I took it back out, oil dripped out of tip when inverted, so I don't think it's blocked up.

The cycle/recycle unit thing indicated briefly that it sensed flame every time I tried to get it going. Green light would stay on for roughly 3-5 seconds, then quit.

no manometer here. Super broke right now too as I've just had my car in the shop twice and the mortgage just hit for the month.

nepacoal · Post by **nepacoal** » Fri. Sep. 06, 2019 11:43 am

For a 30 minute timer...
3 pins - 51 seconds
4 pins - 66 seconds
5 pins - 81 seconds

If you have 3 pins and it's going out, add 1 pin to each section.

If you already have 4 or 5 pins, you may need to add feed by turning in (CW) white knob on Stoker one full turn. If it was already set for no more than 2 inches of ash from the winter you wouldn't need to mess with feed but if you think you might have had more than 2 inches of ash, you may need more feed...

I know you said you cleaned it, but are you positive that all passages inside the boiler are clean? I have the new style from 2016 and it has a cover over the flue breech that has to be removed from the inside. It clogs with flyash and must be removed and vacuumed from the inside on mine. It's the square plate with standoffs to the right of ash bucket...

McGiever · Post by **McGiever** » Fri. Sep. 06, 2019 12:56 pm

CAD Cell is the flame sensor black with possibly yellow pig tail wires. It faces forward to detect good bright flame.
If doesn't see good steady flame it trips out in 3-5 seconds...BINGO!

It could be as simple as wiping crud off the lens end with a Q-Tip and you're back on oil anyways...

CLICK LINK: cad sensor oil furnace

https://www.amazon.com/Replacement-Primary-Contro ... B004P646DC

lzaharis · Post by **lzaharis** » Fri. Sep. 06, 2019 6:49 pm

Shamokinfolk wrote: ↑
Fri. Sep. 06, 2019 8:13 am
I have been having so much trouble with my coal/oil boiler lately. In the last 3 months, the coal fire has gone out close to a dozen times. I have swept out everything more than once (including the grates under the feed, pipes, chimney entrance, and firebox) but it persists in going out. The second-to-last time it went out I adjusted the blower motor resistor about 1/16" to the left and it stayed on for about 2 weeks then went out again last night. Exhausted and frustrated I figure I would switch back to oil for simplicity's sake.
I made sure the chamber was clear of insulation, blew out the chamber with air to clear any residual dust, bled the line, replaced the filter, bled the line again, and it will not stay lit. The initial primer cycle runs to bleed the line, then I switch it to normal cycle. It ignites and indicates a flame briefly (I can also see the flame) then after roughly 5 seconds, it quits. I bled the line and cycled through 10 times at least, but it would not stay lit. This is all with the thermostat turned all the way up, so it's calling foe heat. I ended up having to pull out the injector again, stuff the insulation back in, and go back to the inexplicably unreliable coal so I could take a hot shower at least. It's been a nightmare, and I'm constantly worried that fire is going to go out, and I'll come home to an ash bucket/firebox full of coal.
Any advice would be greatly appreciated. I'm essentially a novice when it comes to machinery like this, and the previous owner was the one who directed me to the resistor fix.

=============================================================================================================================================================================================================================================================================================================================

Welcome to my world;

I do not have the KAA-4-1 dual fuel with the secondary combustion fan and frankly I am glad I don't have it.
I have the KAA-4-1 with the single combustion fan.

I have had the same issues with my Riello burner.
Chances are that the oil feed tube to the burner nozzle is loose as it sounds exactly like what mine was doing.
Added to that the nozzle spacing adjustment was incorrect and had to be readjusted and locked.
I pulled the burner out reinstalled the burner port cover plate and never looked back as the tank is empty and I have no plans to fill it.

About the stoker going out first things first;

1. Remove the baffle plate over the flue breech by lifting it up and pulling it out of the angle iron slot it rests on and check to see how much fly ash is in the flue breech.
If there is any fly ash in the flue breech it has to be vacuumed out. you need to pull the ash basket out to look at the flue breech adequately to clean it.
(this was never discussed or mentioned in the owners manual I was given for the boiler when I bough it in 2015).

2. you need to add pins to the timer to keep the fire going I have 4 sequences of pins to run the stoker 12 minutes every 30 minutes to keep the fire going in the heating season.

4 minutes at zero

2 minute at seven minutes

4 minutes at 15 minutes

2 minutes at 22 minutes for the hold fire timer to work and keep the fire lit.

You will burn a little more coal in the off season months but it will run much better.

You need to bite the bullet and purchase a Dwyer manometer and a sensor tube for it to be sure it is operating correctly as the barometric damper must be adjusted with the stoker fire running and the probe over the fire using the hole in the fire door above the letters.
You can purchase these things directly from Dwyer Instruments and have them in a couple of days. The Dwyer folks are great people to deal with and very helpful if you have questions.

Don't hesitate to ask questions.

oliver power · Post by **oliver power** » Fri. Sep. 06, 2019 7:28 pm

lzaharis wrote: ↑
Fri. Sep. 06, 2019 6:49 pm
=============================================================================================================================================================================================================================================================================================================================

Welcome to my world;

I do not have the KAA-4-1 dual fuel with the secondary combustion fan and frankly I am glad I don't have it.
I have the KAA-4-1 with the single combustion fan.

I have had the same issues with my Riello burner.
Chances are that the oil feed tube to the burner nozzle is loose as it sounds exactly like what mine was doing.
Added to that the nozzle spacing adjustment was incorrect and had to be readjusted and locked.
I pulled the burner out reinstalled the burner port cover plate and never looked back as the tank is empty and I have no plans to fill it.

About the stoker going out first things first;

1. Remove the baffle plate over the flue breech by lifting it up and pulling it out of the angle iron slot it rests on and check to see how much fly ash is in the flue breech.
If there is any fly ash in the flue breech it has to be vacuumed out. you need to pull the ash basket out to look at the flue breech adequately to clean it.
(this was never discussed or mentioned in the owners manual I was given for the boiler when I bough it in 2015).

2. you need to add pins to the timer to keep the fire going I have 4 sequences of pins to run the stoker 12 minutes every 30 minutes to keep the fire going in the heating season.

4 minutes at zero

2 minute at seven minutes

4 minutes at 15 minutes

2 minutes at 22 minutes for the hold fire timer to work and keep the fire lit.

You will burn a little more coal in the off season months but it will run much better.

You need to bite the bullet and purchase a Dwyer manometer and a sensor tube for it to be sure it is operating correctly as the barometric damper must be adjusted with the stoker fire running and the probe over the fire using the hole in the fire door above the letters.
You can purchase these things directly from Dwyer Instruments and have them in a couple of days. The Dwyer folks are great people to deal with and very helpful if you have questions.

Don't hesitate to ask questions.

I agree. You need to add pins to timer. One single pin makes a difference. try putting 2 pins in. Not two in every group. I mean 2 single pins.

Shamokinfolk · Post by **Shamokinfolk** » Fri. Sep. 20, 2019 1:52 pm

I added a pin to both intervals, so 4 minutes at the 12 o'clock position and the 6 o'clock position. It ran well for about 4 weeks and went out again last night. More pins?
I had already removed the baffle and cleaned out the breach. I had an issue with condensation in the hopper about a year ago, and that led me to the baffle.
I have a friend of the family that works HVAC, I think I'll have him take a look. I love how the manual and the Keystoker website both say that you'll never have to adjust anything after the initial set up.

nepacoal · Post by **nepacoal** » Fri. Sep. 20, 2019 2:07 pm

Do you have a c8835 timer (30 minute intermatic)? If so, I'd recommend 3 to 4 pins every 10 minutes (3 sets). Sounds like you have two sets 15 minutes apart. I think mine would also have a hard time staying lit with 15 minutes between timer runs. At a 10 minute interval, I haven't had an outfire in over 2 years (have only had one since original
install in April 2016).

Can not keep Keystoker lit

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