Garage build, heating questions.

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lincolnmania
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Post by lincolnmania » Fri. Mar. 08, 2019 10:43 am

Building a garage and i plan on installing a coal boiler in the future, need some assistance with the materials needed for the rough in.

decided to put the pex piping in the concrete slab and i have a bunch of questions before i start ordering parts. The shop build is supposed to start in about a month so i need to get supplies soon.
i have a bunch of questions about the whole project.

1. How much piping to put in the floor? building is going to be 960 square foot, well insulated, 12' ceiling. pex calculators say 960 foot. would 900 foot be enough (3 loops) or should i install 1200 foot (4 loops)?

2. what size underground pex to supply the floor heating loop? there will be approx 40 foot of underground pipe.

3. do i need a second set of underground lines for an overhead heater? i assume that radiators get 180 degree water and floor heat gets 140 degree water.....i would need the tempering valve in the house right?

4. underground tubing. what are you guys using? is there a local supplier? shipping is mighty high on that insulated pex for owb's

5. brand of o2 barrier pex. i see some off brand cheaper stuff, can it be trusted?

6. antifreeze in system. Is this be done with a water to water heat exchanger? i assume you don't want antifreeze in the boiler and the house loops.

7. anyone know where to rent the pex staple tool?


 
Phil May
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Post by Phil May » Fri. Mar. 08, 2019 11:59 am

900' would be plenty. Most of the insulated Is 1" and it will heat that easy. Your water for the slab will be more like 110 degrees. Mixing valve and pump will go in the garage so you only need one underground sevice.

 
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McGiever
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Post by McGiever » Fri. Mar. 08, 2019 12:19 pm

Awww! LincMan...

:roll: You didn't read the books?

A themostatic mixing valve is pretty fancy and $200.00...a boiler bypass and a $20.00 globe valve can do the same and never fail. Better yet...put bypass in garage and run only 180* water out underground and mix slab return water in to make your lower temp water while having still the full 180* there for the overhead heater(s).
Take the left over $180.00 from globe valve and buy one ton of coal. ;)

Antifreeze ain't cheap and it requires maintenance and upkeep too...it breaks down and becomes acidic, so if HX saves buying some antifreeze it makes HX cheaper to buy and own in the long haul.

There are "test strip" to check antifreeze PH and more.

For renting a stapler, whom ever is selling you the PEX is more likely to want to rent you their tool.

 
lincolnmania
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Post by lincolnmania » Mon. Mar. 11, 2019 12:41 pm

what books?

 
lincolnmania
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Post by lincolnmania » Mon. Mar. 11, 2019 4:14 pm


 
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Richard S.
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Post by Richard S. » Mon. Mar. 11, 2019 5:29 pm

The Van Wert in my parents house is in the garage. Garage is 36*36 and well insulated, one wall is against existing structure but most of that is old garage that is not heated yet. Even with the jacket it rarely goes below 50, normally keeps it in the mid to upper 50's. There is about 70 feet of black pipe that is somewhat insulated. My brother purchased a heat exchanger after the flood in 2011 so he could heat his house while they renovated through the winter, it now occupies my parents garage. It almost never comes on unless you turn up the thermostat and it doesn't take long to heat it up.

Pex in the floor would certainly be nice but how often do you intend on being in the garage in the winter?

Image

 
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McGiever
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Post by McGiever » Mon. Mar. 11, 2019 9:09 pm

lincolnmania wrote:
Mon. Mar. 11, 2019 12:41 pm
what books?
McGiever wrote:
Wed. Feb. 20, 2019 4:30 pm
Many books on radiant floors out there...Dan Holohan has one...Hydronic-Radiant-Heating-Practical for the Nonengineer


 
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Post by Odyknuck » Mon. Mar. 11, 2019 10:40 pm

Part (36 X 30") of my garage is heated with In floor hydronics. I keep the slab temp at 40 degrees. it maintains 55 to 60 degrees in the space. I am currently using a Propane instahot domestic heater for it. I used a 5 zone distribution manifold and ran 1200' of PEX in the pour. I highly advise installing 2" pink or blue foam under the pour. Also lay in 4 or 6" wire mesh to tie wrap the PEX to so it keeps it from floating to the surface.

 
lincolnmania
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Post by lincolnmania » Tue. Mar. 12, 2019 1:11 am

yes the 2" foam is going under the slab. i was planning on installing the pex myself and stapling it to the foam.

 
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Post by CapeCoaler » Tue. Mar. 12, 2019 3:01 am

You want it in the middle of the pour...
Chairs and mesh...
Tie wrap it to the mesh...
Staples will pull out...

 
Odyknuck
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Post by Odyknuck » Tue. Mar. 12, 2019 7:53 am

Yep, staples will not hold. There will be several guys walking in the concrete to spread it.

 
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Post by lzaharis » Tue. Mar. 12, 2019 10:03 am

As much as I dislike in floor heat you need to consider using the large plastic sheets that have the plastic pegs molded in them that hold the pex pipe in place so that they do not move when you are pouring the ready mix over the excavated floor of your future garage.

The injection molded sheets with the plastic pegs eliminate having to measure exactly and also you will be able to run the pex to the garage apron and keep it ice free as well without having to worry about spacing and making sure it is 6 or more inches away from the end of the pour as the plastic pegs are set so many inches on center.

I tried to look for them on the "this old house" web page but I gave up looking but anyone that sells a lot of pex products should know exactly what you need.

I am not positive but I think it has insulation foam board glued to it already.

 
lincolnmania
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Post by lincolnmania » Tue. Mar. 12, 2019 10:15 am

why would they sell the pex foam staples if they don't work?
i am not interested in spending more money for wire mesh. i need to do this fast so i don't hold up the builders probably have to do this all myself. i can't get anyone to help me, everybody has their faces stuck to their phones, my son works 80 hrs a week. they are gonna use a conveyor for the concrete so it costs more. prob could save a bunch if i forget about the floor heat.


gotta keep control of the build budget otherwise i can't install a boiler, and that is the goal. i cannot borrow any money so that is out. i got a text from steve a few days ago, has a efm plate boiler for me and a nice heavy base and he is rounding up the rest of the parts i will need.

 
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Post by Rob R. » Tue. Mar. 12, 2019 10:36 am

I did a few radiant jobs on the farm with Dad. We just zip tied the tubing to the rebar.

Crews like to staple the tubing to the foam because it is faster...although there is a small performance hit by not having the tubing in the center of the slab.
they are gonna use a conveyor for the concrete so it costs more. prob could save a bunch if i forget about the floor heat.
Why can't they just use a few extra chutes off the truck?

 
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franpipeman
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Post by franpipeman » Tue. Mar. 12, 2019 12:54 pm

Depending on size of building you cant drive the concrete truck over the foam and preplaced radiant tubing and rebar even with extra chutes . id hate to have to fit the pex down while the concrete crew and truck is waiting though that might be possible


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