Coal Fired Air Conditioning?

 
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nicholaskheinrich
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Post by nicholaskheinrich » Sun. Jan. 13, 2019 9:36 am

Hi all,
New guy here, located in Bay City, MI.

I am looking at buying an old Victorian house that's about 5k Sq Ft. It has steam heat, and I want to use a coal stoker boiler. Should need roughly 500k BTU. I would use a steam to water heat exchanger to create a large hot water loop for a everything but the steam heat in the house.

It has a pool (18k gallon), needs the driveway redone, and I plan to put a snow melt system in place when I redo it. Domestic hot water will also be heated from the boiler. I would make it so either house heat or snowmelt would run, not both, house heat having priority.

I know that running a boiler year round is the best way to prolong its lifespan, and it would seem that running a boiler powerful enough to heat a house, domestic hot water, and a snowmelt system in the winter just for domestic hot water and pool heat in the summer would lead to having a much too powerful boiler. So that got me thinking...

I know they make hot water absorption chillers in the range needed (about 10 ton), and that would give me a cold water/glycol loop for cooling. I could also use the heat from the condenser to heat the pool. That would essentially put the boiler at a similar full load year round. Since the pool would be heated by the boiler anyway, it's not really using anymore energy, despite the slightly lower efficiency of an absorption chiller.

Does anyone know of someone doing this before? Or does anyone see any issues with such a setup? (Yes I know it would be rather complicated and expensive up front)

Thank You,
Nick


 
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Rob R.
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Post by Rob R. » Sun. Jan. 13, 2019 9:50 am

Welcome. That sounds like quite a project - unfortunately I have not seen anyone tackle anything on that scale.
Should need roughly 500k BTU.
I think you should spend some more time on the heating load. The old rule for a totally uninsulated house is 50 btu's per sq. ft of floor space, which would put you at 250k Btu. It is possible your house has more radiation than that already installed, but it seems unlikely that it would be double. In any case, you need to match your boiler to the amount of installed radiation - so you need to measure the radiators and calculate the EDR of the entire system.

 
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Post by nicholaskheinrich » Sun. Jan. 13, 2019 11:14 am

For the house alone there is about 300k BTU worth of radiation, so you are quite close. The current gas boiler is 300k, and was properly matched to the edr of the radiation, so they say.

In this case however , the boiler will also be responsible for a 500 Sq Ft garage, on demand domestic hot water, and a snowmelt system. Granted the snowmelt won't run if there is a call for heat from the house, but it will be a slightly larger load than the house radiation. Surely that would require some extra BTUs over just the house radiation?

Would it be possible to connect an actuator to the air and feed adjustments, to vary the burn rate (half and full power) based what is calling for heat? (house and/or hot water loop)

 
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Post by McGiever » Sun. Jan. 13, 2019 12:20 pm

nicholaskheinrich wrote:
Sun. Jan. 13, 2019 11:14 am

Would it be possible to connect an actuator to the air and feed adjustments, to vary the burn rate (half and full power) based what is calling for heat? (house and/or hot water loop)
Anything could be possible. ;)

 
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Post by CapeCoaler » Sun. Jan. 13, 2019 1:11 pm

If you are comfortable with and have knowledge of absorptive chillers...
I see no major flaw with your reasoning and basic design principles...
I am looking at a heat-pump based glycol/water system for cooling and dehumidification...
Using chillers for cooling has a few benefits over refrigerant systems...

 
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Post by lzaharis » Sun. Jan. 13, 2019 1:55 pm

Hello Nicolas,

Has Michigan Sugar finished reclaiming all the local distant sugar beet stockpiles and the remote sugar beet stockpiles yet?

There are a couple of things you should do first long before you work your way to a coal fired steam stoker.

You need to invest in two very well written paper back books written by Dan Holohan.
The first book is "WE GOT STEAM HEAT" and the second one is "GREENING STEAM" you can purchase them directly from the author at www. dansbooks.com or through his bookstore web page at www.heatinghelp.com.
He ships them directly to you from his office and you can pay for them using a credit card.

These paperback books written by Mr. Holohan are an essential steam heating bible describing steam heat in detail and how it works for both the layperson and experienced plumber that has no experience installing steam heating systems and troubleshooting them as well. Mr. Holohan make his writing fun to read with many stories about his work in the heating business and he explains everything in terms easy to understand for the lay person and plumber alike.

A new steam heating system or a system that needs to be upgraded requires the use of large inside diameter drop headers the same size of the tappings in the steam chest or larger to create dry steam for the heating system which Mr. Holohan explains in great detail.

Small boilers used to make steam heat are handicapped as they generally only have 2 tapping's in the steam chest where they could manage up to ten tapping's to make dry steam using drop headers with condensate drain lines that allow the condensate to drain back to the water level in the steam chest.
"Using more than 2 tappings in the steam chest lets the boiler work faster to make steam using much less fuel".
This is because the wet steam can escape much faster to do more work after it leaves the drop headers.

A simple drop of water expands 1,700 times in volume to create steam. Mr. Hplohan has mentioned in the numerous texts he has written about steam heat saying the more tapping's a boiler has in a steam chest the less work the boiler has to do to make steam to create heat as there is less resistance in the steam chest.

In saying this a very small boiler using any fuel can make huge amounts of dry steam very quickly with less fuel and water vapor which enters the drop headers and changes to dry steam as the condensate drains back to the steam chests water level to be used again.

Please purchase those paperbacks so you can understand the business of steam heating.


============================================================================================
nicholaskheinrich wrote:
Sun. Jan. 13, 2019 9:36 am
Hi all,
New guy here, located in Bay City, MI.

I am looking at buying an old Victorian house that's about 5k Sq Ft. It has steam heat, and I want to use a coal stoker boiler. Should need roughly 500k BTU. I would use a steam to water heat exchanger to create a large hot water loop for a everything but the steam heat in the house.

It has a pool (18k gallon), needs the driveway redone, and I plan to put a snow melt system in place when I redo it. Domestic hot water will also be heated from the boiler. I would make it so either house heat or snowmelt would run, not both, house heat having priority.

I know that running a boiler year round is the best way to prolong its lifespan, and it would seem that running a boiler powerful enough to heat a house, domestic hot water, and a snowmelt system in the winter just for domestic hot water and pool heat in the summer would lead to having a much too powerful boiler. So that got me thinking...

I know they make hot water absorption chillers in the range needed (about 10 ton), and that would give me a cold water/glycol loop for cooling. I could also use the heat from the condenser to heat the pool. That would essentially put the boiler at a similar full load year round. Since the pool would be heated by the boiler anyway, it's not really using anymore energy, despite the slightly lower efficiency of an absorption chiller.

Does anyone know of someone doing this before? Or does anyone see any issues with such a setup? (Yes I know it would be rather complicated and expensive up front)

Thank You,
Nick

 
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Post by StokerDon » Sun. Jan. 13, 2019 3:34 pm

lzaharis wrote:
Sun. Jan. 13, 2019 1:55 pm
There are a couple of things you should do first long before you work your way to a coal fired steam stoker.
I don't think he mentioned anything about steam.

-Don


 
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Post by nicholaskheinrich » Sun. Jan. 13, 2019 5:05 pm

CapeCoaler wrote:
Sun. Jan. 13, 2019 1:11 pm
If you are comfortable with and have knowledge of absorptive chillers...
I see no major flaw with your reasoning and basic design principles...
I am looking at a heat-pump based glycol/water system for cooling and dehumidification...
Using chillers for cooling has a few benefits over refrigerant systems...
I am knowledgeable and somewhat experienced in absorption chillers, I've worked with them from a number of RV refrigerators, to a large chiller at work. The lithium bromide variety to be specific.
lzaharis wrote:
Sun. Jan. 13, 2019 1:55 pm
Hello Nicolas,

Has Michigan Sugar finished reclaiming all the local distant sugar beet stockpiles and the remote sugar beet stockpiles yet?

There are a couple of things you should do first long before you work your way to a coal fired steam stoker.

You need to invest in two very well written paper back books written by Dan Holohan.
The first book is "WE GOT STEAM HEAT" and the second one is "GREENING STEAM" you can purchase them directly from the author at www. dansbooks.com or through his bookstore web page at www.heatinghelp.com.
He ships them directly to you from his office and you can pay for them using a credit card.

These paperback books written by Mr. Holohan are an essential steam heating bible describing steam heat in detail and how it works for both the layperson and experienced plumber that has no experience installing steam heating systems and troubleshooting them as well. Mr. Holohan make his writing fun to read with many stories about his work in the heating business and he explains everything in terms easy to understand for the lay person and plumber alike.

A new steam heating system or a system that needs to be upgraded requires the use of large inside diameter drop headers the same size of the tappings in the steam chest or larger to create dry steam for the heating system which Mr. Holohan explains in great detail.

Small boilers used to make steam heat are handicapped as they generally only have 2 tapping's in the steam chest where they could manage up to ten tapping's to make dry steam using drop headers with condensate drain lines that allow the condensate to drain back to the water level in the steam chest.
"Using more than 2 tappings in the steam chest lets the boiler work faster to make steam using much less fuel".
This is because the wet steam can escape much faster to do more work after it leaves the drop headers.

A simple drop of water expands 1,700 times in volume to create steam. Mr. Hplohan has mentioned in the numerous texts he has written about steam heat saying the more tapping's a boiler has in a steam chest the less work the boiler has to do to make steam to create heat as there is less resistance in the steam chest.

In saying this a very small boiler using any fuel can make huge amounts of dry steam very quickly with less fuel and water vapor which enters the drop headers and changes to dry steam as the condensate drains back to the steam chests water level to be used again.

Please purchase those paperbacks so you can understand the business of steam heating.
They are almost done, but not quite. I can tell they're working hard though, I can smell it!

I have spent much time on the heating help forum, and am quite familiar with Dan's wonderful books. I do not own Greening Steam though. I will have to get it.

I have also been reading some old books on the subject, and have come to learn the importance of allowing condensate to escape from the steam, so that dry steam leaves the header. Multiple tappings are the best way to lower steam velocity and get drier steam for sure.

My steam background is actually in the coal fired steam locomotive category, and so all this low pressure, low velocity business is taking some getting used to! The stoker in the locomotive I've worked on has an 80hp steam engine for the screw!
StokerDon wrote:
Sun. Jan. 13, 2019 3:34 pm
I don't think he mentioned anything about steam.

-Don
I did indeed. The house has steam heat, so the boiler will be steam. A steam to water heat exchanger will supply hot water to heat domestic hot water, snowmelt system, or the pool in the summer. The absorption chiller may be steam or hot water fired.

 
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Post by StokerDon » Sun. Jan. 13, 2019 6:40 pm

Well OK then, Steam On!

 
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Post by nicholaskheinrich » Mon. Jan. 14, 2019 4:20 am

McGiever wrote:
Sun. Jan. 13, 2019 12:20 pm
Anything could be possible. ;)
Of course! :D But is it a good idea? Never operated a stoker before, so I can't even begin to guess how it would respond to that.
StokerDon wrote:
Sun. Jan. 13, 2019 6:40 pm
Well OK then, Steam On!
Full steam ahead! :yes:

 
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Post by CapeCoaler » Mon. Jan. 14, 2019 9:21 am

I am knowledgeable and somewhat experienced in absorption chillers,
Then a steam stoker should not be an issue...

 
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Post by nicholaskheinrich » Mon. Jan. 14, 2019 10:28 am

CapeCoaler wrote:
Mon. Jan. 14, 2019 9:21 am
Then a steam stoker should not be an issue...
The steam part isn't, although low pressure steam and condensate via gravity return is rather new to me. I'm used to high pressure steam with condensate under pressure returning to a condensate tank or de-aerator and being pumped back into the boiler. Much less in the way of pipe pitch, steam velocity, etc to worry about.

It's more the coal stoker part I'm unfamiliar with. Having a stepped gas burner is one thing, a stoker is another. Not sure what happens to combustion efficiency, ash falling properly, etc.

 
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Post by CapeCoaler » Mon. Jan. 14, 2019 6:10 pm

Don't overthink it...
Think basic mechanical function...
Feed it coal and take out the ashes...
The controls maintain temp...

 
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Post by nicholaskheinrich » Tue. Jan. 15, 2019 12:18 pm

CapeCoaler wrote:
Mon. Jan. 14, 2019 6:10 pm
Don't overthink it...
Think basic mechanical function...
Feed it coal and take out the ashes...
The controls maintain temp...
I admittedly have a habit of overthinking things... As far as controls, well that's where I have my fun!

 
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Post by BlackBetty06 » Tue. Jan. 15, 2019 9:01 pm

A small absorbtion chiller would be interesting for sure. Granted you are able to give it a somewhat stable load and know what your doing so you dont solidify it. Im assuming you probably know about this type of stuff if you have an absorbtion chiller at work. What are your plans for the condenser water?


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