KAA-4-1

 
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pintoplumber
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Post by pintoplumber » Sun. Oct. 21, 2018 3:54 pm

StokerDon wrote:
Sun. Oct. 21, 2018 3:09 pm
Denis,

I don't get it. Are you saying your pressure is as low as 2 PSI?

-Don
That is correct. No pressure registers on the gauge. Dennis


 
lzaharis
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Post by lzaharis » Sat. Oct. 27, 2018 9:32 am

I checked the boiler this morning and the pressure is still near zero PSIG and the high limit is hovering around 170 degrees Fahrenheit and the house is warm.

The AHS S130 in Montana using Powder River Basin Sub Bituminous Coal makes me jealous for sure.
If I were to do it I would use a level sensor switch like the AHS units use but I would set it much much lower in height and then feed it with an auger to operate only when the stoker is running.

 
lzaharis
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Post by lzaharis » Mon. Oct. 29, 2018 11:33 am

I just checked the boiler and there is no pressure on the gauge and the temperature is 170 degrees Fahrenheit and the house is warm.

So far so good.

 
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lsayre
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Post by lsayre » Mon. Oct. 29, 2018 12:16 pm

lzaharis wrote:
Mon. Oct. 29, 2018 11:33 am
I just checked the boiler and there is no pressure on the gauge and the temperature is 170 degrees Fahrenheit and the house is warm.

So far so good.
With zero system pressure, how can you call it good?

 
lzaharis
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Post by lzaharis » Mon. Oct. 29, 2018 12:30 pm

Hello Larry,

The circulator is simply pushing the water through the system with almost no resistance other than the 225 plus feet of baseboard and it is hot.

Pinto plumber has nearly the same set up except his is in the garage running on oil from what I remember and it is the high point of the his system and he has the same readings with his basement heating circuit in the set up as well.

The 5 gallons of air blanketing the 10 gallons of water weight being 84 pounds rounded higher in the steel compression tank above the boiler is allowing the circulator to simply push the hot water with little resistance and I have maintained my point of no pressure change with zero pressure just like a large dewatering pump would due to the design of its scoop- impeller and close clearance impeller housing and its larger discharge hose size.

Having a warm spouse certainly helps keep things relaxed in the house too.

 
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hotblast1357
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Post by hotblast1357 » Mon. Oct. 29, 2018 3:01 pm

But WHY???

 
lzaharis
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Post by lzaharis » Mon. Oct. 29, 2018 7:31 pm

The warm spouse or my plumbing?


 
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hotblast1357
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Post by hotblast1357 » Mon. Oct. 29, 2018 7:59 pm

lzaharis wrote:
Mon. Oct. 29, 2018 7:31 pm
The warm spouse or my plumbing?
This whole pressure thing, what’s your reasoning for running 0 psi..

 
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Post by lzaharis » Tue. Oct. 30, 2018 10:03 am

About my system pressure or lack there of;

It occurs naturally with no interference or resistance from any mechanical controls of any type except for the back pressure of the air blanket that has a very very low P.S.I.G. in the upper third of the steel compression tank and the relief valve in the steam chest.

The five gallons of air over the 10 gallons of water in the steel compression tank hung in the ceiling of my laundry room creates a very large air cushion and as a result the system has an operating range from zero to twelve pounds
which only occurs if the pressure reaches 180-190 degrees Fahrenheit which is my dump zone temperature.

Using the steel compression tank allows the end user to have a zero or near zero pounds "Per Square Inch Gauge" Pressure with no loss of the needed "Point Of No Pressure Change" in the system.

The system is continually flooded with a 10 gallon (84 pounds rounded) weight of water above the 34+ gallons of water in my system at floor level that allows the system to be flooded with no large air bubbles as the 5 gallon air cushion is trapped in the 15 gallon steel compression tank.

Any micro bubbles would rise into the Internal Air Separator with the and then the baffle in the Internal Air Separator and pass up into the piping that connects it with the hot water that flows upward into the half of the Airtrol Valve casting in the airtrol valve that diverts the hot water upward into the Steel Compression Tank and the air bubbles dissolve when they reach the air blanket.

The cooler water in the lower third of the steel compression tank flows downward into the cold water passage of the airtrol valve and the bottom of the same pipe connection and back into the steam chest to be heated and circulated through the 225 feet of 3/4" baseboard(which I hate) in the house.

An Air Scoop can also be used with a Steel Compression Tank and the Airtrol Valve also eliminating the need for a bladder expansion tank and also obtain the same results after the system has been filled and the excess water drained from the Steel Compression Tank when the boiler is fired.

A plain open to air steel expansion tank can be used as well with no difficulty.
If I knew then what I know now 36 years ago when I had the hand fed boiler installed I would still have the 15 gallon open to air steel expansion saddle tank hanging in my ceiling AND I would have a VanWert VA400 Anthatherm boiler.

I am not sure how to illustrate the P.S.I.G. of air pressure in the steel compression tank when the system I have is operating at 150-170 degrees Fahrenheit but the pressure per square inch is very small due to the surface area of the 10 gallons of water in the steel compression tank.

I will have to check with the folks at Bell and Gossett and ask how to do the above to illustrate it.


.

 
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lsayre
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Post by lsayre » Tue. Oct. 30, 2018 1:59 pm

Leon, you are not operating a steam boiler. My concern is that much of your terminology and logic appears to come from that realm. The two realms (hot water and steam) have differing requirements.

 
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Rob R.
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Post by Rob R. » Tue. Oct. 30, 2018 2:15 pm

As long as there is the slightest amount of pressure in the system at the highest point, everything should work properly at normal hot water heating temperatures. I can't think of a good reason to operate this way, but that doesn't mean it won't work.

 
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Post by lzaharis » Tue. Oct. 30, 2018 4:24 pm

I guess one way to look at it is how a pressure equalizing tank for potable water is employed in water distribution systems in our immediate area as the hills are loaded with houses with municipal water and sewer connections.
Most of the city is served with water from an uphill source and the water is delivered by gravity to the great majority of the city to the city limits and they only have to pump water up hill on my side of the valley.

The 2 potable tanks below me are a large 6 million gallon concrete tank at the ECO village referred to as a pressure equalizing tank and an aquastore silo water tank within the city limits below that for the same purpose and another 10,000 gallon aquastore tank above my inlaws old place at the highest elevation to add natural pressure to the system in a six inch water main that runs to the village of Jackonville, New York that is also a pressure equalizing tank.
The old 10,000 gallon steel tank that provides water to the hospital was recently replaced with a new metal tank and it provides water to the hospital complex and this tank is 500 feet higher +- than the hospital complex.
These tanks are essentially a water glass with a straw inside that exits out of the bottom of the tank and it is filled with the pressure side of the system and the storage tanks put all the weight of the water in the tank down on that 6 inch pipe connection that exits each tank which connects to the pipeline and the centrifugal water pumps are controlled by the float switches in these tanks.

 
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Post by lsayre » Tue. Oct. 30, 2018 5:29 pm

Rob R. wrote:
Tue. Oct. 30, 2018 2:15 pm
As long as there is the slightest amount of pressure in the system at the highest point, everything should work properly at normal hot water heating temperatures. I can't think of a good reason to operate this way, but that doesn't mean it won't work.
My fear is that a temperature excursion above ~210 degrees would boil the water. Perhaps the KAA-4 regulates temperature much better than my Coal Gun does. I mainly believe that I see excursions (and occasional dump zone activation) because I don't circulate any boiler water unless a zone opens on a heat call. That plus an S130 only holds about 27 gallons of water. My dump zone activates at ~223 degrees (give or take a couple degrees). My water would need to hit 243+ degrees in order to boil.

 
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Post by Rob R. » Tue. Oct. 30, 2018 7:23 pm

Larry, you are correct - hence my reference to normal hot water heating temperatures. It is so easy to just open the valve and charge the system to 10-12 psi, I don't understand why Leon refuses to do it.

 
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Post by StokerDon » Tue. Oct. 30, 2018 7:29 pm

lsayre wrote:
Tue. Oct. 30, 2018 1:59 pm
you are not operating a steam boiler. My concern is that much of your terminology and logic appears to come from that realm.
And if there is an overshoot with pressure that low it will become a steam boiler. Then, if the PRV is installed properly it will vent the steam out of the system eventually exposing the unprotected crown sheet to the fire. End of boiler.

That is my nightmare scenario. I pray this doesn't happen.

-Don


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