S130 Draft question.

 
StephenD
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Post by StephenD » Thu. Oct. 18, 2018 1:03 pm

I'm new here, have been lurking here for a couple years just learning all I could about latest in coal technology. I have burned wood for last 18 yrs. with a Hardy H-2 outdoor boiler. Had enough wood cutting so started education here. Learned everything I needed to do an S130 install. I bought a 5 yr old S130 from a guy North of Allentown, Pa. The chimney runs straight up and is about 12' tall. The one thing I notice is that the manometer runs about .02 at idle but does not rise hardly any when fan kicks on (maybe .03). It does rise higher if windy (.04-.05). Draft control set to open at .04-.05. Should it go higher with fan running? Having a lot of half burned coal but a little better since setting PV to 120. Temp ranges outside have been 50's to low 30's at night. Heating about 1600 sq. ft. It has used about 400 lbs in 6 days. Seems a little high to me (yes/no)?. Works great but needs some tweeking I think, but just not sure what to do. Got this far because of all of you. Thanks so much for sharing your past struggles. It sure saved me a lot of pain.


 
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lsayre
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Post by lsayre » Thu. Oct. 18, 2018 2:55 pm

The draft seems fine to me. It will improve when it gets colder, and it would improve additionally if you had more than 12 ft. of chimney. 15 feet is generally considered the minimum for coal. I've seen less draft than that here (clear down to 0.01"), since I run year round, but currently draft here is similar to what you are seeing. And I hardly ever notice any difference in the draft when my fan is on vs. when the boiler is at idle (until the fire gets good and hot).

The Coal Gun runs with only about half or less the stack temperature of a wood boiler. Lower temps mean appreciably lower draft. That's why coal appliances need a manometer, and wood appliances do not. And why coal appliances need better chimneys than do wood appliances.

I burned about 187 lbs. in the past 6 days, but I have a well established fire. We have about the same sq-ft overall if I don't count our walk-out basement. The basement has not to my knowledge made a heat call in the last 6 days so we're about even on the sq-ft.

You may be losing a lot of heat to your underground run and continuous circulation. And also to the outside air. All of this presumes that you have the Coal Gun outside at the same location as for your Hardy wood boiler.

If you tell me how many full cords of seasoned hardwoods you typically went through in past seasons, I can ballpark how much coal you will reasonably likely need.

 
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McGiever
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Post by McGiever » Thu. Oct. 18, 2018 3:32 pm

Draft is fine for these big blower fan induced draft monsters. And 440 pounds is way too much coal for your conditions in these six days.

I'd suspect a shallow and high positioned under-developed fire is what is going on there. :annoyed:

Fire thickness and fire position both have to be right. What can you tell us about yours?

A "trick" to read thickness and position is to stick an iron or steel rod through the sight port and wiggled all the way down until you hit the rolling grate...let it set there for like 40 seconds and then withdraw steel rod and read it like a dipstick...snap a quick picture and post it here if you want to show it and get opinions.

If the fire is as I'd suspect, you could switch off the ashing grate for some time and hope to get the fire to burn down more towards the grate during a few heat calls...may take a couple tries with a rest in between times to allow some small amount of raw coal to get added on top of the fire column. We're trying to get the fire column to both thicken and to move downward. That will result in less wasted or unburnt coal, so you should then see much better ash pans. :D

A fully developed fire will show a orange glow at the bottom of the fire column at the grate level after a firing cycle ends.

 
StephenD
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Post by StephenD » Thu. Oct. 18, 2018 7:29 pm

Thanks for the reply's. Chimney may be a little under sized. I will add some height & monitor. The heat pile I suspect is the main culprit. I lowered SV to 120 degrees a couple days ago & it seems to be ashing better. Is there a specific time I should do the steel rod test of the heat pile?

 
StephenD
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Post by StephenD » Thu. Oct. 18, 2018 7:52 pm

I forgot to address Isayre's offer. I don't know how many cords I used. The wood was free from my woods & I had a 16' X 16' covered storage beside Hardy. I would fill it full about 8' high or more and it would last season.( I really did'nt want to know). I enjoyed cutting the wood (free feels good) but age started to say quit. I can't say I wish I had done this sooner but I already know I'm going to like it.

 
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Post by McGiever » Thu. Oct. 18, 2018 8:23 pm

StephenD wrote:
Thu. Oct. 18, 2018 7:29 pm
Thanks for the reply's. Chimney may be a little under sized. I will add some height & monitor. The heat pile I suspect is the main culprit. I lowered SV to 120 degrees a couple days ago & it seems to be ashing better. Is there a specific time I should do the steel rod test of the heat pile?
Right near the completion of a good heavy firing cycle.

A fully developed fire will show a orange glow when viewed up through the ash pan door, at the bottom of the fire column at the grate level after a firing cycle ends.

 
StephenD
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Post by StephenD » Thu. Oct. 18, 2018 9:11 pm

I checked and it glowed orange except for last 6-8 inches which were just black. I will do as suggested above. What should my ash temperature be after it shuts off?


 
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McGiever
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Post by McGiever » Thu. Oct. 18, 2018 10:45 pm

StephenD wrote:
Thu. Oct. 18, 2018 9:11 pm
I checked and it glowed orange except for last 6-8 inches which were just black. I will do as suggested above. What should my ash temperature be after it shuts off?
Last 6-8 inches of the steel rod...is that the bottom end down deep at the grate level?

Yup, you have a shallow/thin and high positioned under-developed fire.

For a temp...shoot for 140* and after you reach that you can always fine tune from that point...too hard to fine tune w/o first reaching the 140* mark.
Last edited by McGiever on Fri. Oct. 19, 2018 11:03 am, edited 1 time in total.

 
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lsayre
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Post by lsayre » Fri. Oct. 19, 2018 5:41 am

StephenD wrote:
Thu. Oct. 18, 2018 7:52 pm
I forgot to address Isayre's offer. I don't know how many cords I used. The wood was free from my woods & I had a 16' X 16' covered storage beside Hardy. I would fill it full about 8' high or more and it would last season.( I really did'nt want to know). I enjoyed cutting the wood (free feels good) but age started to say quit. I can't say I wish I had done this sooner but I already know I'm going to like it.
5 tons of anthracite pea should be plenty. Start there to be safe, and adjust as you gain experience.

 
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Post by Rob R. » Fri. Oct. 19, 2018 6:55 am

McGiever wrote:
Thu. Oct. 18, 2018 10:45 pm
Last 6-8 inches...is that the bottom end down deep?

Yup, you have a shallow/thin and high positioned under-developed fire.

For a temp...shoot for 140* and after you reach that you can always fine tune from that point...too hard to fine tune w/o first reaching the 140* mark.
Just to add to that a little - after making the ashing adjustment, I would turn up the heat and run some hot water for about 30 minutes. The idea is to make the Coal Gun's fan run for at least 30 minutes and ensure the fire is fully developed.

 
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lsayre
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Post by lsayre » Fri. Oct. 19, 2018 7:09 am

Rob R. wrote:
Fri. Oct. 19, 2018 6:55 am
Just to add to that a little - after making the ashing adjustment, I would turn up the heat and run some hot water for about 30 minutes. The idea is to make the Coal Gun's fan run for at least 30 minutes and ensure the fire is fully developed.
Good point. When it isn't really that cold outside, this is key. I might do this for an hour rather than 30 minutes. When initially starting a fire, I start doing this (putting a large load on the boiler) when boiler temp first hits within 10 degrees of fan cut-off.

It is also critical when starting a fire in a Coal Gun that you not permit ashing for about the first 6 hours after you have established a fire and reached fan cut-off temperature, and it is key that you remember to turn it on after 6 hours (so you don't eventually burn the house down).

Calibration of actual ashing initiation temperature is perhaps key here, but when I was running my Coal Gun with ashing at 140 degrees, I experienced a lot of puff-backs. I rapidly dropped it to 130, followed by 120. Since then, over the years I slowly scaled it back further, as well as slowly diminishing the hysteresis span, and presently (for the past several years) I'm running (year round) at 105 degrees on the ashing initiation set point, and only 1 degree of hysteresis. I started this quest at 140 degrees for ashing, and 10 degrees of hysteresis. At 105 degrees for ashing and 1 degree of hysteresis I do not lose my fire (even in the heat of summer), and I do not experience many puff backs. Perhaps 1 or 2 small whooshing ones per year now, vs. perhaps as many as 1 or two per day at the beginning, with some of them being rather pronounced bangs.

My AHS manual says to never take the initiation of ashing set-point below 120 degrees. Either it is wrong, or 105 degrees on my unit is more like 120 degrees in reality. ???

 
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Post by McGiever » Fri. Oct. 19, 2018 10:47 am

Agree, 30 min. isn't long enough to fully develop fire in a Coal Gun or similar, but the point is well taken.

Wish there were more "Stickies" for these type of detailed, repetitive problems/solutions...

Then it would take only one reply to redirect the poster to go read the "Stickie"...if poster didn't find it himself already...

 
StephenD
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Post by StephenD » Fri. Oct. 19, 2018 11:00 pm

Thanks for all the info. I do not have DHW so I can't just turn on hot water to work the boiler. Have got it ashing better now after following your directions. About 90% ash this morning. Hysteresis is something that is not fully understood by me. I assume that when set at 5 degrees, that is when the ash grate cycles below SV setting? Yes/no. Also reading Isayre's above post I'm curious as to what happens if SV and degrees are set too low? I also read warning in pitiful manual but no where does it explain effects. Anyone know pain this could cause and what to watch for.

 
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Post by lsayre » Sat. Oct. 20, 2018 6:41 am

The safety concern is that with a lower ashing temperature there is a somewhat greater chance that the fire will climb into the hopper. I think this is bunk.

At 10 degrees of Hysteresis and a setpoint of 120 degrees, ashing begins at 110 degrees and stops at 120 degrees.

At 1 degree of hysteresis and a setpoint of 105 degrees, ashing begins at 104 degrees and stops at 105 degrees.

Puff-backs most often seem to occur when there is excessive ashing, which leads to excessive fresh and volatile coal being fed into the firebox. The more hysteresis, the less often the boiler ashes, and the more fresh/volatile coal is fed (since coal only feeds when ashing occurs, and also to the degree that ashing occurs) due to less frequent but longer ashing cycles. The less hysteresis the more often the boiler ashes (though in reality it's not as much of a frequency increase as one might first imagine, see paragraph below), and the less fresh coal is fed per ashing cycle. The latter greatly favors a condition for the lessening of puff-backs.

Ashing only occurs when the fan is running. But as soon as the fan starts loads of cold air is dragged up through the ashes and through the fire. This immediately and quite measurably drops the temperature of the ash on and /or in the vicinity of the ashing sled (effectively the grate). And it generally drops it well more than 1 degree, so setting hysteresis to 1 degree may achieve an overall hysteresis of the factory desired 10 degrees anyway, whereas setting hysteresis at 10 degrees will under the same circumstances result in an effective 20 degrees of hysteresis, and a resultant whopping load of ashing, and a whopper load of fresh and volatile coal feeding. And more chance for puff to boom....
Last edited by lsayre on Sat. Oct. 20, 2018 6:53 am, edited 3 times in total.

 
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Post by Rob R. » Sat. Oct. 20, 2018 6:43 am

StephenD wrote:
Fri. Oct. 19, 2018 11:00 pm
Thanks for all the info. I do not have DHW so I can't just turn on hot water to work the boiler.
Are you planning to hook up a heat exchanger? it is a shame to have a coal boiler running and not get your DHW from it.


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