Looking for a coal/oil boiler to run a steam system

 
rrob311
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Post by rrob311 » Mon. Jul. 16, 2018 9:11 pm

I'm working on a large house built in the 1880s with a single pipe steam radiator system. It has an oil fired boiler that is no longer functional. Found a few coal/oil boilers but the owners said they would only run hot water systems. Are there any coal boilers that are commonly used for steam? Or can a hot water boiler easily be converted to steam? I need to have dual fuel capability.


 
lzaharis
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Post by lzaharis » Mon. Jul. 16, 2018 11:51 pm

rrob311 wrote:
Mon. Jul. 16, 2018 9:11 pm
I'm working on a large house built in the 1880s with a single pipe steam radiator system. It has an oil fired boiler that is no longer functional. Found a few coal/oil boilers but the owners said they would only run hot water systems. Are there any coal boilers that are commonly used for steam? Or can a hot water boiler easily be converted to steam? I need to have dual fuel capability.
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No a hot water boiler cannot be converted to steam unless it has the tappings for a steam system AND an H Stamp.

Once you have the right size coal stoker boiler to make steam only after you determine the heating load and EDR of the radiators you can simply change all the near boiler piping and install a drop header for dry steam and install a new hartford loop, automatic fill valve, sight glass gauge, low water cut off, skim port to remove cutting oil foam, low water cut off, back flow preventer and install new boiler wiring.

Once you clean the system piping and radiators and change out the old radiator valves for new ones and install TRV's on the radiators to control the heat coming off the radiator you will save them a lot of fuel and money and you can buy the smallest oil fired steam boiler with a hot water coil to use as a back up unit installing a second drop header and a valved off cross connection to the main header for the home and install valves for the cross connected pipe runs to the hot water lines in the home.

You can also take advantage of the fact that the S130 and S260 Axeman Anderson coal stokers can make all the hot water they need too.

If desired just buy the smallest oil fired steam boiler with a hot water coil and plumb it properly with a drop header for dry steam, back flow preventer, hartford loop, automatic water fill valve with level regulator, glass sight gauge, skim port to remove oil and foam and a back flow preventer and the correct piping runs for domestic hot water.

Axeman Anderson coal stokers can make a lot of steam for very little work and using pea coal for fuel. The great thing about the AA boilers is they are the sled type coal stokers and they hold the fire even when the power goes out and they will roar back to life later. They also come with an H stamp for steam use at no extra charge and a hot water coil.in the next larger size model.
The Axeman Anderson coal stokers can be equipped with an insulated boiler shell also if desired but if its in the basement it may not be needed anyway as the radiating heat coming off the boiler shell will be welcome in a cold damp winter.

The coal gun sled type coal stoker boilers can be certified for steam but at a very large extra cost.

The flat bed keystokers coal stokers rated for steam will lose the fire withing a couple of minutes and do not hold enough hot coal to restart a coal fire in the event of a power outage.
Last edited by lzaharis on Tue. Jul. 17, 2018 3:23 pm, edited 3 times in total.

 
Pacowy
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Post by Pacowy » Tue. Jul. 17, 2018 12:09 am

I used an EFM 900 to heat a large house built in 1890 with a single pipe steam system. Many of the bigger units are able to be used for steam. As Leon mentioned, you need to have a good handle on the sf of installed radiation to know what boilers to consider.

Mike

 
rrob311
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Post by rrob311 » Tue. Jul. 17, 2018 10:29 am

Hmm, I think the boiler in there now is an american standard. I think there are 10 or so radiators. The home is roughly 2500 sq ft. It has a propane fired tankless water heater but I wouldn't mind having the option to use the boiler during the winter. There would be no problem with extra heat in the cellar because it is kind of drafty and it ranges from -15 to the 30s in the winter. I don't have access to the boiler right now but I think it was in the 140k btu range.

 
Pacowy
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Post by Pacowy » Tue. Jul. 17, 2018 1:04 pm

If you want to fine-tune it you can look up the sf of each radiator you have using a chart like this - Post by stoker-man - Pictorial: Cast Iron Radiator Sizing Charts, BTU Output . Add up the sf and multiply the sum by a "pickup factor" to account for distribution network losses. Old school value = 1.33. On top of that, it doesn't hurt to include allowances for DHW load, future expansion plans, coal quality variations, etc. The main thing you want to avoid is going to the expense and effort of installing a boiler that doesn't have enough oomph to pressurize the radiation to which it is attached.

Mike

 
lzaharis
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Post by lzaharis » Tue. Jul. 17, 2018 3:30 pm

rrob311 wrote:
Tue. Jul. 17, 2018 10:29 am
Hmm, I think the boiler in there now is an american standard. I think there are 10 or so radiators. The home is roughly 2500 sq ft. It has a propane fired tankless water heater but I wouldn't mind having the option to use the boiler during the winter. There would be no problem with extra heat in the cellar because it is kind of drafty and it ranges from -15 to the 30s in the winter. I don't have access to the boiler right now but I think it was in the 140k btu range.
=============================================================================================================

Now you can start on your steam heating homework, have a heat loss study done and purchase two excellent books on steam heating before you begin your project, they are "WE GOT STEAM" and 'GREENING STEAM" written by Dan Holohan you can purchase them directly from the author through his web page www.heatinghelp.com and head over to the books store page.

When you purchase books from Dan directly he mails them to you from his place and there is no middle man.

The Heating Help Forum is an oasis for steam heat novices and experts and discussing heating and plumbing problems.

 
Phil May
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Post by Phil May » Tue. Jul. 17, 2018 4:01 pm

Just get an EFM 520 or 700 and forget it either will do the job.


 
Pacowy
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Post by Pacowy » Wed. Jul. 18, 2018 11:15 am

I'd measure the radiation or confirm that the 140k is gross (not net) output before assuming that a 520 would handle this.

Mike

 
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Rob R.
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Post by Rob R. » Wed. Jul. 18, 2018 11:34 am

rrob311 wrote:
Mon. Jul. 16, 2018 9:11 pm
I need to have dual fuel capability.
That limits your options to EFM, Keystoker, and Van Wert.

 
Phil May
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Post by Phil May » Wed. Jul. 18, 2018 2:44 pm

A 520 will heat any 2500sqft house that has windows and walls south of alaska.

 
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hotblast1357
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Post by hotblast1357 » Wed. Jul. 18, 2018 6:05 pm

Phil May wrote:
Wed. Jul. 18, 2018 2:44 pm
A 520 will heat any 2500sqft house that has windows and walls south of alaska.

Careful....

 
Pacowy
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Post by Pacowy » Wed. Jul. 18, 2018 6:14 pm

Phil May wrote:
Wed. Jul. 18, 2018 2:44 pm
A 520 will heat any 2500sqft house that has windows and walls south of alaska.
Says the guy running a 700. :lol: :clap: Seriously, we've had threads where people had problems trying to run steam systems at the upper limit of a 520's capacity. I'll stand by my advice that if you don't know either (a) the sf of installed radiation or (b) that a 140k gross btu boiler produced satisfactory performance with the installed radiation, you shouldn't assume a 520 will do the job.

Mike

 
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Rob R.
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Post by Rob R. » Wed. Jul. 18, 2018 6:50 pm

Mike, thanks for the reminder.

Years ago we had someone on here with a brand new EFM hooked up to an old steam system, and it really struggled to heat their house. Everyone was helpful trying to get the stoker running at peak performance, but it didn't seem to matter, the stoker just ran all the time and the owner was frustrated with a cold house. I tried getting the radiation specs and stuff from the owner, but they never came back on the forum. I later shared the install pictures with someone more familiar with steam than I am, and they said the near boiler piping was wrong...to the point that the boiler would have a very hard time getting any steam to the radiators.

So, moral of the story is - make sure you get a boiler the right size, make sure the steam piping is done correctly, and make sure you skim the boiler to get the oil out.

 
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Post by coaledsweat » Wed. Jul. 18, 2018 6:54 pm

The OP claims his oil burner is around 140K. There aren't a lot of coal steamers that can't handle that.

 
rrob311
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Post by rrob311 » Wed. Jul. 18, 2018 8:39 pm

I am certainly a novice with this steam system. Last winter I heated the place strictly with direct vent propane and kerosene heaters. It wasn't absolutely terrible but I was only heating 1/4 of the place and it still cost a couple grand or so in fuel. I was paying about 2.50 a gallon for propane and diesel. I have several tons of rice coal I would like to start using for the very cold months. I would like to recalculate the system to see what would be a good sized boiler to obtain.


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