Boiler plumbing primary/secondary vs single loop. pro's and cons

 
Frank F
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Post by Frank F » Fri. Jul. 13, 2018 9:55 pm

Rob R. wrote:
Fri. Jul. 13, 2018 6:45 pm
The 0015 is about 100 watts on high, and the 007s are less... especially if you get the new ones. ~10 dollars per month for the 0015 to run all the time, and a few more dollars for the others when it is really cold.

An ECM circulator with zone valves would use about half the electric, and the zone valves can be hooked up without a $100 controller.

Go with whatever you are comfortable with.
Thank you! I like this path. Just ordered 1-1/4 thermopex. Concrete pad will be poured tomorrow morning. Starting to move forward. Again thank you for your guidance.


 
Frank F
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Post by Frank F » Sat. Jul. 14, 2018 8:51 pm

Rob R. wrote:
Fri. Jul. 13, 2018 6:45 pm
The 0015 is about 100 watts on high, and the 007s are less... especially if you get the new ones. ~10 dollars per month for the 0015 to run all the time, and a few more dollars for the others when it is really cold.

An ECM circulator with zone valves would use about half the electric, and the zone valves can be hooked up without a $100 controller.

Go with whatever you are comfortable with.

 
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Rob R.
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Post by Rob R. » Sun. Jul. 15, 2018 9:49 am

Frank, did you decide which way you were going?

 
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swyman
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Post by swyman » Wed. Jul. 18, 2018 6:48 am

Hi Frank, sorry I'm a little late to the party....sooooo glad to finally see someone else with a AA-220! I have been where you are at. My boiler was 220' from the house in the barn and I have 1" Thermalpex. I can testify that you absolutely made the right choice going with 1 1/4". Before I went coal I had a 500k Central wood boiler and got away with the 1" pex due to pure forest eating power of that wood and 400 gallons of 185* water. Coal is a different animal and the 220 is less than half of the output of the wood boiler I had. Don't get me wrong, it is the best move I have made yet, and I started with a corn boiler till ethanol sent those prices to the moon, then wood, now coal so I've been around a bit. I also have 3 heat exchangers all ran by their own circulators so I may be able to answer any questions/concerns with my experience. I highly recommend a chimney which I don't have yet....the power vent was purchased new along with my boiler from LL and efficiency drops off considerably after about 3 weeks due to fly ash buildup on the fan blades and housing so it needs cleaned....which is just a pain but it does work if that is what you want to do. I guess I should just shut up now and watch your progress, I will help with any questions to the best of my knowledge. This forum is a life saver and the guys on here will be able to guide you through any problem.... My boiler did get moved in the basement of a new addition we put on last year just so you know and I am still using that Thermalpex loop to the barn as I keep my truck and Bobcat in there....really nice not to have snow and ice on your vehicle! Keep in touch and we like pictures! BTW, where are you located? Oh, and this year I will be burning all Buck. I normally burn rice, burned 5 ton of buck 2 years ago and this year I'm just going to go all buck and see what happens. I do have 3 ton of rice left over from last season but I didn't like how it was caking up which is why I am switching.
Good luck! Shane

 
Frank F
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Post by Frank F » Fri. Jul. 27, 2018 8:22 pm

Rob R. wrote:
Sun. Jul. 15, 2018 9:49 am
Frank, did you decide which way you were going?
Yes. I'm going to take your advice and go with one pump and valves for the zones. Progress on my boiler room has been slow but steady. I should get my boiler within the week. Still waiting on 1.25 thermopex but hopefully it's not too much longer.

 
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lsayre
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Post by lsayre » Tue. Aug. 07, 2018 5:32 am

Frank F wrote:
Fri. Jul. 27, 2018 8:22 pm
Yes. I'm going to take your advice and go with one pump and valves for the zones. Progress on my boiler room has been slow but steady. I should get my boiler within the week. Still waiting on 1.25 thermopex but hopefully it's not too much longer.
It seems to me that a single loop branching off to zones and using zone valves (as opposed to zone circulators) would require that each zone have two zone valves, one that opens on a heat call, and one that closes on a heat call. When a T-Stat heat call happens the bypass loops zone valve would close, and the zone valve leading to the zone to be heated would open. And when the T-Stat for that zone signals that it is satisfied, the zone valves would then reverse themselves and water would once again bypass the zone.

 
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Rob R.
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Post by Rob R. » Tue. Aug. 07, 2018 6:16 am

Larry, that type of arrangement is normally not necessary. The use of balancing vales on each zone will balance things out so the flow does not to all to one zone or another when there are multiple heat calls...and I don't think that is even necessary if he uses a smart circulator that can be set in fixed pressure mode.


 
Frank F
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Post by Frank F » Sun. Sep. 16, 2018 1:42 pm

swyman wrote:
Wed. Jul. 18, 2018 6:48 am
Hi Frank, sorry I'm a little late to the party....sooooo glad to finally see someone else with a AA-220! I have been where you are at. My boiler was 220' from the house in the barn and I have 1" Thermalpex. I can testify that you absolutely made the right choice going with 1 1/4". Before I went coal I had a 500k Central wood boiler and got away with the 1" pex due to pure forest eating power of that wood and 400 gallons of 185* water. Coal is a different animal and the 220 is less than half of the output of the wood boiler I had. Don't get me wrong, it is the best move I have made yet, and I started with a corn boiler till ethanol sent those prices to the moon, then wood, now coal so I've been around a bit. I also have 3 heat exchangers all ran by their own circulators so I may be able to answer any questions/concerns with my experience. I highly recommend a chimney which I don't have yet....the power vent was purchased new along with my boiler from LL and efficiency drops off considerably after about 3 weeks due to fly ash buildup on the fan blades and housing so it needs cleaned....which is just a pain but it does work if that is what you want to do. I guess I should just shut up now and watch your progress, I will help with any questions to the best of my knowledge. This forum is a life saver and the guys on here will be able to guide you through any problem.... My boiler did get moved in the basement of a new addition we put on last year just so you know and I am still using that Thermalpex loop to the barn as I keep my truck and Bobcat in there....really nice not to have snow and ice on your vehicle! Keep in touch and we like pictures! BTW, where are you located? Oh, and this year I will be burning all Buck. I normally burn rice, burned 5 ton of buck 2 years ago and this year I'm just going to go all buck and see what happens. I do have 3 ton of rice left over from last season but I didn't like how it was caking up which is why I am switching.
Good luck! Shane
Thank you for the advice. Things really slowed down for me. The boiler was late as well as the thermopex. I'm picking the thermopex up tommorow and will begin the excavation this week. I'm just starting to put the boiler together. Seems pretty simple but if you have any pointers let me know. I will be running a chimney. That has been tough to find watching Craigslist but I managed to pick a SS tripplewall up at a decent price I just need to purchase the cieling box.

 
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Post by lzaharis » Sun. Sep. 16, 2018 3:22 pm

About your boiler;

The main worry is having a level slab to with four or six concrete bricks to lower the boiler ash pit base on to avoid issues with any possible water leaks and water entering the ash pit.

You have to be extra careful when lowering the firebox on top of the ash pit as you could develop an issue with draft and poor performance due to a hairline air leak with the base and boiler shell not nesting and sealing together properly. Swyman went through this having issues with the poor burn and lack of hot water to heat the home with his unit when he installed it in his barn.

Once you have it sealed with a high temperature sealant or good gasket material for boiler mating surfaces and assembled minus the shell you should run the twin stokers without the hopper installed and a heavy towel held in place with a 2 by 12 covering the twin stoker inlets with the ash pit door closed and use either a lit wad of news print or a unlit propane torch to check for a vacuum leak between the two mating surfaces of the boiler shell, the ash pit door and the ash pit base. You can do this without attaching the flue pipe to the flue breech of the boiler.

If you have a second person watching the flue breech they will see any smoke or smell any propane that make come through the mating surfaces between the ash pit base and the boiler shell.
Just be sure to have a door open for added ventilation.

You may want to consider using an outside air inlet for combustion air to avoid sucking air through the door gaskets on the shed.

You can do this with 2 or 3 inch PVC pipe by running a section of pipe through the wall and gluing the 2 elbows to the pipe and strapping it to a wall stud. point the elbows downward, Take some mosquito screen and stuff it in the elbow after the glue is set on the plastic bar screen end cap and push it through the wall and then secure it to the stud with a piece of pipe strap. glue the second elbow on it and then you can either leave it or add a length of PVC pipe to the elbow for the fresh combustion air to exit at the floor level.
Some folks run the fresh air pipe to near the air inlets on the stoker blower and some wood pellet burners are designed with outside combustion air inlet boxes to have outside air brought in to the fire box of their pellet stokers.


Are you leaving the circulator and the bladder tank/steel compression tank and air scoop in the home to avoid any issues with freeze damage to avoid having a cracked circulator flooding the shed?

 
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Sting
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Post by Sting » Wed. Sep. 26, 2018 4:12 pm

Rob R. wrote:
Tue. Aug. 07, 2018 6:16 am
Larry, that type of arrangement is normally not necessary. The use of balancing vales on each zone will balance things out so the flow does not to all to one zone or another when there are multiple heat calls...and I don't think that is even necessary if he uses a smart circulator that can be set in fixed pressure mode.
Rob??? you wouldn't be referring to flow check valves when you say "Balancing Valves" ???
https://inspectapedia.com/heat/Check_Valves_Heat.php

 
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Post by Rob R. » Wed. Sep. 26, 2018 4:17 pm

No, I am not.

 
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lsayre
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Post by lsayre » Wed. Sep. 26, 2018 4:45 pm

Rob R. wrote:
Wed. Sep. 26, 2018 4:17 pm
No, I am not.
What about utilizing venturi or monoflo or diverter Tee's (with all of these being essentially the same thing to my knowledge), combined with simple thermostatic valves on each radiator or HW Baseboard? Is something along these lines what you are conceiving here?

 
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Post by Frank F » Tue. Oct. 23, 2018 8:04 pm

Rob R. wrote:
Thu. Jul. 12, 2018 5:56 am
Residential Coal Boiler / Hot Water Design.
Hello sir. I'm back...I finally have the boiler built and in the boiler room and the 1 1/4 thermopex ran. My next question. Can I run the boiler lines straight into the house and install all the components in the house? Instead of anything being in the boiler room.

Except the 0015, pressure and temperature guages and bleeder.

 
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Post by StokerDon » Tue. Oct. 23, 2018 8:11 pm

I'm not sure what you mean? But you need a water feed for the boiler, an expansion tank, air scoop and a pressure relief valve on/at the boiler.

-Don

 
Frank F
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Post by Frank F » Tue. Oct. 23, 2018 8:25 pm

StokerDon wrote:
Tue. Oct. 23, 2018 8:11 pm
I'm not sure what you mean? But you need a water feed for the boiler, an expansion tank, air scoop and a pressure relief valve on/at the boiler.

-Don
I thought if the primary loop is running from barn into my home I could have water feed, expansion tank, air scoop,.....inside my home in the primary loop.

So is there a specific distance it must be from the boiler?

My other concern is I did not run a independent water line to the barn. Is there an issue with water feed junction being in the basement.


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