Thermal heat store

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Janewaring
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Post by Janewaring » Tue. Jun. 19, 2018 3:19 am

Hi,
We have a limited budget to work with. We are trying to decide if we should install a thermal heat store £2000 to link our heating systems or if we should use a neutraliser such as a dunsley linking system £600.

Our wood burning stove is circa 11kw to radiators and 4,5kw to the room. We have a small woodland for wood.
We currently also have a circuit of 6 radiators for the wood stove.

We also have an oil boiler boiler with a separate circuit of 18 radiators. We need to reduce the oil cost for heating through linking the systems.


I can't find unbiased cost savings to compare a thermal store to a neutraliser. Does anyone have experience of a thermal store for circa 300 litres? Is it worth the additional investment of £1200?


Many thanks

Jane

 
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Post by coalnewbie » Tue. Jun. 19, 2018 6:53 am

Welcome Jane from a fellow Brit ... Also welcome to the board although I do see you have posted before. ... Here in the US members are mostly from the NE USA and so this is a slow time of year. However, we have many experts in your area and someone will be back to you... just give it a few days.

Simon ... go soton... do you get it?

 
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Post by lsayre » Tue. Jun. 19, 2018 8:19 am

Most of us here in the States do not utilize back boiler arrangements. Therefore I must presume that the subject matter of this query is going to prove to be highly foreign to most of us, as it most assuredly was for me. I did an admittedly brief search of this matter and about all I can state is that I found that over the longer haul there relatively often seems to be some level of dissatisfaction associated with taking the Dunsley route, whereas there is rarely if ever such dissatisfaction when taking the thermal storage route. All I can suggest is that if you initially take the less expensive route and then you find that you are dissatisfied and choose to switch to the more expensive route, then for this scenario the overall cost to you will be higher than if you initially go with the more expensive option.

 
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Post by coalnewbie » Tue. Jun. 19, 2018 11:44 am

Can you find and old Rayburn or Aga? Convection is a wonderful thing.


 
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Post by franco b » Tue. Jun. 19, 2018 4:17 pm

The benefit of storing heat will depend on the excess capacity of the wood boiler, if any. That seems like a big stove and if you can fire it harder and hotter, you will gain in efficiency, provided the excess heat is removed to storage, which can be the oil boiler, or stand alone storage that both boilers draw from. Which way to go should be determined by the output capacity of the wood stove. If only a little more than what you are using, then go to just hooking into the oil boiler. If the wood stove has a great deal more of heat potential then greater storage capacity would be better.

 
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Post by Janewaring » Wed. Jun. 20, 2018 4:39 am

Hi Everyone

Many thanks for your views and comments.

Larry, you make a good point regarding the views about the neutraliser and the thermal heat store. My problem is I am not sure if the capacity of the store I am looking at will deliver the benefits I want.

Franco b asks about the capacity of my stove, and my rough maths below leads me to believe the boiler I am proposing to fit isn't big enough! Although I do have to think about feeding the boiler and how many trees I need for that.

Coalnewbie, I love the convection of the aga, the kitchen was the only consistently warm room in the house and was where we all congregated during the cold winter, see below re hot water.

Well here goes regarding capacity:

I have an energy performance certificate (EPC). The EPC system is doubted, but I am sure the principle of the report may help us. Our report is shocking mainly because the house is made of solid stone walls and floors with open beams, so no roof insulation. I am considering internal insulation boards but one project at a time. I also need to take into account that the house, built in 1704, does not have a damp proof course and needs to breath or so it is described in many old property guides. We do not currently have any damp problems I hasten to add.


The EPC states that we have an annual space heating need of 69711KW, online guidance indicates this is a seasonally adjusted figure for a typical house. I have used a calculator to convert the figure to BTUs providing 23786380.96!! I am not sure if this helps us.

The wood burning stove boiler output is 11K or 37533btus per hour. Looking at our system usage this is circa half of our need if we turn off the large barn and regulate the other radiators. I think I need a bigger boiler stove.

Our current radiators system requires (using a btu calculator for the radiators) 83,086, I hasten to add we have several rooms we can close off one being a large barn requiring 20,000 btus, another being the room where the boiler stove will be. We have also added thermostatic vales to manage the heat better.

Per system our demand is :
Wood burner boiler radiators - 17,700 btus
Oil boiler radiators - 65,386 (less 20,000 btu for the barn) 45,386

Hot Water - the wood and oil are not linked to the hot water side this has an immersion heater, I know madness considering our systems. Current annual running cost for barely enough water £400

The aga is not linked to the hot water (the boiler had a leak and was shut off) although we could replace the boiler and link it to either proposed system to secure 90 gallon or circa 400 litres of hot water 24/7. The aga heats the kitchen and is great for that but is expensive to run circa £936 per year.

I am trying to work this out myself because every quote I have had so far is outside of our budget and involves replacing our entire system for circa £15,000, which we do not have.

We moved in January 2018 to this house and were absolutely frozen despite high heating costs of £15 per day. This was mainly because of the poor distribution of heat around the house, air locks and no heating in some rooms. We have added 3 radiators to bath rooms and have added thermostatic radiator valves to help manage this.

I am sorry about the long message but hope it will help us to decide a way forward.

 
Janewaring
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Post by Janewaring » Wed. Jun. 20, 2018 4:41 am

that wasn't really a quick reply - sorry

PS my other message on this forum regarding the Jotul fully resolved reinstating the stove which is absolutely fantastic. Thank you so much for your guidance. I love the stove and look forward to it keeping my office warm this winter.

 
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Post by franco b » Wed. Jun. 20, 2018 10:46 pm

How are your ceilings insulated? This is usually the easiest place to improve.


 
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Post by Janewaring » Thu. Jun. 21, 2018 6:51 am

The ceilings do not have any insulation

 
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Post by KLook » Thu. Jun. 21, 2018 7:56 am

The ceilings do not have any insulation
This will save more then adding any amount of heat or storage.
I came to coal with a large storage system and wood boiler. The climate in my area at that time made the system less effective then a more temperate area. I had 50 gallons in the wood boiler and 250+ in the tank. Even so, I had to get up in the night to keep the wood boiler cranking if it was cold, or windy, or both! When I went to coal, the storage tank was not necessary and was removed.
My brother still runs a wood boiler with a much larger tank from a hotel hot water system. It works but not much better them mine did. That tank is 11'6" long and 30 inches in diameter. Plus it is boxed in with styrofoam and plywood. It takes up alot of space.

Kevin

 
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Post by franco b » Thu. Jun. 21, 2018 10:42 am

Looking for ways to cut heat loss should be the first thing before deciding on what heating equipment to use.

Wood heating is so labor intensive it should only be a supplement to something else. It is also very difficult to burn a large batch efficiently without large heat exchange surface, really large to accommodate the surge of heat in the gas stage of combustion which is half the heat potential in the wood. If that gas stage is not burned , smoke and creosote result.

Have you investigated what coal options there are?

 
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Post by Janewaring » Fri. Jun. 22, 2018 3:29 am

Franco b

I will investigate insulation and wish I had done this first.

I note your point re wood, we plan to have some coal however the drive for wood is because it is free save for our labour due to our well stocked woodland area.

Our installation of the linking system is on hold until I decide thermal store or neutraliser.....

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