Decided on a Coal Boiler...School is in...Radiators

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dcveem3
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Other Heating: Propane/Heat Pump

Post by dcveem3 » Sat. Jan. 20, 2018 8:54 pm

My mom and dad used coal/convection systems when I was a kid. I loved it. Franco Belge I believe? Anyway I just finished a large remodel project on my last home before I retire in 6 years. 4200sq/ft with the best insulation job I could do. All 2x6 construction and maximum ceiling insulation. I'm pretty happy with the efficiency of the home. What I'm not happy with is the energy costs to feed this house with 5 of us living in it. My HVAC systems are less than 3 years old. I have 5 tons/120k btu on the main floor and 3 tons/65k btu on the second. Both systems are Heat Pumps over Propane. I have 2- 500g tanks buried and 1 120 gallon for emergency behind one of my out-buildings. I bulk buy propane and get it for anywhere between .99/gal to 1.60 depending on conditions. I don't think either furnace has ever made it to high-fire setting. Typically the 1st floor runs at 80k and the upstairs at 40k btu's. Last year, we used 1400 gallons of propane(heat, water, cooking)and my electric bills are anywhere between $185-$340 dead of summer with the pool running. Really, it's not too bad. I even keep my shop heated/AC'd all year from 50deg winter to 76deg in the summer.

So, I'm thinking of Solar Energy but that's a different story!! I REALLY want a backup, take-the-edge-off heating system. I don't mind the labor. I have 30 acres here and 2 backhoes so moving/hauling/storage is not a problem. I've considered outdoor furnaces but I just don't like the installation hassle or the resale potential and although I own 22 acres of woods....not my thing. My Solar project will take care of the electric. But I want backup heat and a nice coal boiler seems like fun.

I'm looking at a Keystoker KA6. I'd have 3 zones, 1st floor furnace, 2nd floor furnace and my connected shop. So, shop is easy. Simple hanging radiator. I'm thinking of adding a radiator to my returns....both 1st and 2nd floor. I can control the zones via my thermostats either by time or outside temperature as both tstats have outdoor sensors I have set at 40degF to changeover from HP to Propane.

I'm here to learn and don't mind it. I love projects. But I see most folks on here have hot water systems to begin with and just tap into them with their boilers. My situation is a bit different. So, rather than mess with the control side of things for now, is my thinking ok? A coil/radiator in the return side of my HVAC system?

Thanks for the help/direction!!
Don
Last edited by dcveem3 on Sun. Jan. 21, 2018 7:54 am, edited 1 time in total.


 
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StokerDon
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Location: PA, Southern York County!
Stoker Coal Boiler: Gentleman Janitor GJ-5, Van Wert VA-600, Axeman Anderson130 X3.
Hand Fed Coal Furnace: Harman SF3500 reduced down to 3 grates connected to its own plenum
Coal Size/Type: Rice, Chestnut and whatever will fit through the door on the Harman
Other Heating: Noth'in but COAL! Well, Maybe a little tiny bit of wood

Post by StokerDon » Sat. Jan. 20, 2018 9:26 pm

Welcome to the forum.

So, your home heating system is hot air and you want to put in a coal stoker boiler. I was in the same boat 5 years ago. At first I put a "radiator" as you call it in my duct work, plumbed the boiler to it and it worked very well. I also installed an indirect water heater, that works great.

Last year I installed some nice cast iron radiators and some in floor radiant. That works even better.

To answer your question, yes, putting a coil (radiator) in your return duct work will do the job. Just make sure you install one with enough surface area to heat your house.

-Don

 
dcveem3
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Location: NorthWest York Co, PA
Stoker Coal Boiler: Someday!
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Other Heating: Propane/Heat Pump

Post by dcveem3 » Sun. Jan. 21, 2018 7:53 am

Exactly. Well radiator/heat exchanger, yes. From my reading the only negative I've found is they can be a PITA to bleed since they will be lower than the boiler. I guess bleeders on the output side of the exchanger at the 90 return would help out.

I wish I did radiant heat. Should have. Actually still can but man that would be a ton of work in this house.

You down around New Freedom? I'm in Dillsburg. Work in York.

Thanks for the reply and help!
Don

 
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Rob R.
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Post by Rob R. » Sun. Jan. 21, 2018 8:09 am

Don, your idea of putting water to air heat exchangers in the existing system will work, but I am curious about your local coal cost? Just seems like the ROI on this project could be quite long, especially if you are buying a new boiler and have to put up a chimney.

 
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StokerDon
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Stoker Coal Boiler: Gentleman Janitor GJ-5, Van Wert VA-600, Axeman Anderson130 X3.
Hand Fed Coal Furnace: Harman SF3500 reduced down to 3 grates connected to its own plenum
Coal Size/Type: Rice, Chestnut and whatever will fit through the door on the Harman
Other Heating: Noth'in but COAL! Well, Maybe a little tiny bit of wood

Post by StokerDon » Sun. Jan. 21, 2018 8:41 am

Rob R. wrote:
Sun. Jan. 21, 2018 8:09 am
Don, your idea of putting water to air heat exchangers in the existing system will work, but I am curious about your local coal cost?
Good point, there is a coal dealer in New Freedom. I don't know what their prices are though. My coal dealer was $180/ ton this passed Summer and $200/ ton now.
Rob R. wrote:
Sun. Jan. 21, 2018 8:09 am
Just seems like the ROI on this project could be quite long, especially if you are buying a new boiler and have to put up a chimney.
Another good point, any coal heating appliance big enough to heat 4200 sq ft is going to require a chimney. That also brings up the question, is a K6 big enough to heat this load?

-Don

 
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Rob R.
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Post by Rob R. » Sun. Jan. 21, 2018 8:56 am

I attached a spreadsheet I made almost 10 years ago to compare the cost of propane vs. alternatives, and ROI. If Don can buy propane as cheap as he says, the savings potential is not nearly as large as what we are used to seeing in these projects. Most people either burn a lot more of it, or pay a higher price. With that said, the cost of propane can fluctuate quite a bit, so there is a benefit to being able to pick and choose when you use it.

Attachments

Propane_Cost_Comparison.xlsx
.XLSX | 16.8KB | Propane_Cost_Comparison.xlsx

 
dcveem3
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Location: NorthWest York Co, PA
Stoker Coal Boiler: Someday!
Hot Air Coal Stoker Stove: Harman Magnum (temp basement duty)
Other Heating: Propane/Heat Pump

Post by dcveem3 » Sun. Jan. 21, 2018 10:57 am

All GREAT points. House already has an 8 year old beautiful chimney with a masonry liner. 8" flue tap in the basement, cleanout on the outside. In fact, there was a coal stove in the basement when I bought the place!!

Yes....I can typically buy propane cheap. But let's just look at that for a moment. I have to make sure my tanks are damn near empty heading into the summer. I have to time it right so I can buy 1,000 gallons or damn close. So there's that. Also, what if there is a propane shortage? There was/is one in the Midwest right now. Remember, 75% of the reason I want to do this is so I have some type of backup heat just incase my HVAC systems go down in the winter or propane gets crazy. This year I got caught....Bang. Texas flood. My price went from 1.10 to 1.65 overnight!! Just that ONE hiccup in the system/supply cost me $500/yr!!

Do you think I'm over-reacting? Maybe just a simple coal stove for backup? Heat the heck out of the basement and put a diverter in both of the returns to draw from there and distribute through the house? Again, my only worry is not being able to get propane. I have generators for power.

So no chimney.
Used boiler KA6, figured installed around $4,000 until I get through with everything.
Yeah I know, no comp for my time. But that's part of the fun for me.

Thanks for the help and comparisons.
Don


 
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hotblast1357
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Post by hotblast1357 » Sun. Jan. 21, 2018 11:06 am

It all depends...

I picked my stoker boiler up for 600 dollars...

put 100 dollars in parts in it...

About 1,800 in plumbing...

Coal is not the best thing though for back up heat, it takes a while to get the coal going and all the water up to temp and running..

I would be using the propane as back up..

If your looking for a back up system, maybe a hand fed stove...

If your worried about propane price fluctuations, switch to coal.

 
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StokerDon
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Stoker Coal Boiler: Gentleman Janitor GJ-5, Van Wert VA-600, Axeman Anderson130 X3.
Hand Fed Coal Furnace: Harman SF3500 reduced down to 3 grates connected to its own plenum
Coal Size/Type: Rice, Chestnut and whatever will fit through the door on the Harman
Other Heating: Noth'in but COAL! Well, Maybe a little tiny bit of wood

Post by StokerDon » Sun. Jan. 21, 2018 11:07 am

I would still go with the boiler and heat you domestic hot water also.

I'm still wondering, a K6 at 144,000 BTU? is that enough to heat a 4,200 sq ft house and DHW? Seems kind of lite to me.

-Don

 
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StokerDon
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Joined: Mon. Nov. 11, 2013 11:17 am
Location: PA, Southern York County!
Stoker Coal Boiler: Gentleman Janitor GJ-5, Van Wert VA-600, Axeman Anderson130 X3.
Hand Fed Coal Furnace: Harman SF3500 reduced down to 3 grates connected to its own plenum
Coal Size/Type: Rice, Chestnut and whatever will fit through the door on the Harman
Other Heating: Noth'in but COAL! Well, Maybe a little tiny bit of wood

Post by StokerDon » Sun. Jan. 21, 2018 11:11 am

I just read the original post again. 4,200 sq ft house plus a shop. There is no way a 144,00 BTU boiler will heat that in the dead of Winter.

-Don

 
dcveem3
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Other Heating: Propane/Heat Pump

Post by dcveem3 » Sun. Jan. 21, 2018 11:21 am

Even zoned? I can use my propane heater (Modine 60k btu) in the shop....I keep that at 50. Shop is 28x28. House uses about 120k btu. I had no trouble keeping her 65 even at -6 this year. So far!

And yes, I was figuring on domestic water too.

Don

 
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StokerDon
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Stoker Coal Boiler: Gentleman Janitor GJ-5, Van Wert VA-600, Axeman Anderson130 X3.
Hand Fed Coal Furnace: Harman SF3500 reduced down to 3 grates connected to its own plenum
Coal Size/Type: Rice, Chestnut and whatever will fit through the door on the Harman
Other Heating: Noth'in but COAL! Well, Maybe a little tiny bit of wood

Post by StokerDon » Sun. Jan. 21, 2018 11:45 am

dcveem3 wrote:
Sun. Jan. 21, 2018 11:21 am
Even zoned? I can use my propane heater (Modine 60k btu) in the shop....I keep that at 50. Shop is 28x28. House uses about 120k btu. I had no trouble keeping her 65 even at -6 this year. So far!

And yes, I was figuring on domestic water too.

Don
Zoning does not enter into it. I am not a heating professional at all but I do know that the first thing that should happen when sizing a boiler or furnace is a heat loss calculation on the building to be heated. Then there is a pickup factor added then you add the DHW in.

I have never heard of a 5,000+ sq ft heat loss + pickup factor + DHW coming it at 144,000BTU. I would think it would be much higher. Am I wrong?

-Don

 
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Rob R.
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Post by Rob R. » Sun. Jan. 21, 2018 12:27 pm

StokerDon wrote:
Sun. Jan. 21, 2018 11:11 am
I just read the original post again. 4,200 sq ft house plus a shop. There is no way a 144,000 BTU boiler will heat that in the dead of Winter.

-Don
Well, it depends how much of the heat stays in the house. The heat load could come in well under, or well over that figure. I think your other suggestion of doing a heat load calculation is a good one. The other things to consider are if Don is willing to let the existing system pick up any slack when it is bitter cold out, and what the domestic hot water load is.
dcveem3 wrote:
Sun. Jan. 21, 2018 10:57 am
House already has an 8 year old beautiful chimney with a masonry liner. 8" flue tap in the basement,
That is great. Between the chimney being available and your willingness to go with used equipment, the cost of this project is a lot more affordable. Are you dead-set on a Keystoker boiler? I was thinking that a used EFM 350 or 520 may also be options for you.

 
Pacowy
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Post by Pacowy » Sun. Jan. 21, 2018 12:56 pm

The OP would get more output from a KA-6 than from a 350. It seems like a reasonable selection.

Mike

 
dcveem3
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Joined: Sat. Jan. 20, 2018 6:44 pm
Location: NorthWest York Co, PA
Stoker Coal Boiler: Someday!
Hot Air Coal Stoker Stove: Harman Magnum (temp basement duty)
Other Heating: Propane/Heat Pump

Post by dcveem3 » Sun. Jan. 21, 2018 1:33 pm

StokerDon wrote:
Sun. Jan. 21, 2018 11:45 am
Zoning does not enter into it. I am not a heating professional at all but I do know that the first thing that should happen when sizing a boiler or furnace is a heat loss calculation on the building to be heated. Then there is a pickup factor added then you add the DHW in.

I have never heard of a 5,000+ sq ft heat loss + pickup factor + DHW coming it at 144,000BTU. I would think it would be much higher. Am I wrong?

-Don
I don't think you're wrong at all...IF I was using this system for primary heat/only source. Remember, I already have 2 dual fuel systems(propane/HP)that are less than 4 years old. Also, in my 4 years since installing, neither furnace has ran on "high". So, that's 80k btu downstairs and 42k up. In fact both of my HP/Propane systems are too big on the heating side....but that's the package when I did the calculations for cooling(8 tons).

Thanks!
Don


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