Considering Home Coal Boiler Project

 
ScottB
Member
Posts: 46
Joined: Wed. Nov. 01, 2017 2:53 pm
Stoker Coal Boiler: Van Wert VA 400 DF
Coal Size/Type: Buck
Other Heating: Jotul wood stove

Post by ScottB » Tue. Dec. 05, 2017 2:51 pm

Recently I have been posting regarding my town buildings future changeover to a coal boiler heating system. Since researching this, I'm now seriously considering changing over my home heating to coal also. I live in an old farmhouse that has been mostly remodeled, sided and vinyl replacement window, and insulated, mostly R19 fiberglass in walls and I think 8" in the attic in the 1 1/2 story main house totaling about 1800 sq ft of floor space or 1350 sq ft how an assessor would view it, and a 425 sq. ft single level addition that has been insulated to R11 in walls and R19 on top. Currently only most of the main part of the house is actively heated, with wood if I'm home to put wood in the stove, or by oil forced hot air if I'm not. Other then a few of electric baseboard heaters installed in the addition when I needed the space for an office for a few years, I haven't heated the space, and just use it for a stock room and hobbies area during the warmer months. DHW is supplied via a 40 gal propane hot water tank.
What I'm now considering is finding a used, serviceable EFM 520, Van Wert VA600, or AA130, that has, or I would install a hot water coil. The boiler would be installed in the basement, that has wide access stairs/ door to the outside, and would be installed along side my oil burner with coal bin along side it. Height restriction is about 7 ft to the floor joists. I would zone it as follows, one zone would be to a heat exchanger in the oil furnace plenum. A second zone would be PEX to hot water baseboard in my addition. The third zone would be for DHW. I would add a forth zone for future expansion, possibly a small workshop area in the garage. The economical and less labor intensive heating of the main house and the addition is key to why I want to do this. Let me add that I'm not afraid of, and actually like big projects.

If one diligently sets out to find a used unit thats requires some refurbishment and is worth doing, what is reasonable price range one should expect for what I'm looking for. So far my initial searching has been on craigslist and Internet searches. Any comments would be appreciated.


 
User avatar
hotblast1357
Member
Posts: 5657
Joined: Mon. Mar. 10, 2014 10:06 pm
Location: Peasleeville NY
Stoker Coal Boiler: 1984 Eshland S260 coal gun
Coal Size/Type: Lehigh anthracite pea
Other Heating: air source heat pump, oil furnace

Post by hotblast1357 » Tue. Dec. 05, 2017 5:44 pm

Post by Salemcoal - Coalgun 130

This is who I bought my eshland (ahs) 260 from.

 
Pacowy
Member
Posts: 3555
Joined: Tue. Sep. 04, 2007 10:14 pm
Location: Dalton, MA
Stoker Coal Boiler: H.B. Smith 350 Mills boiler/EFM 85R stoker
Coal Size/Type: Buckwheat/anthracite

Post by Pacowy » Tue. Dec. 05, 2017 5:47 pm

A few initial thoughts:

- I'm confused by the parts of your plan that appear to describe having both coil and a zone for DHW. Could you please clarify that?

- The boilers you list differ in terms of their capacity. I would suggest that you add up the actual capacity of the heat exchanger and baseboard, and add reasonable allowances for DHW load and future expansion. If you want everything to work at the same time, your capacity needs to cover that number (including applicable pickup). (I've been meaning to make the same suggestion in the Town Garage thread.)

- Although some of my fellow members in another thread have disagreed with me on this, I am hesitant to offer advice on basement boiler shopping without making sure the "shopper" knows the risks they are facing and has reasonable skills for dealing with them. In that context, could you please describe briefly your background/experience with boilers and coal equipment?

Thanks.

Mike

 
User avatar
windyhill4.2
Member
Posts: 6072
Joined: Fri. Nov. 22, 2013 2:17 pm
Location: Jonestown,Pa.17038
Stoker Coal Boiler: 1960 EFM520 installed in truck box
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Crane 404 with variable blower
Coal Size/Type: 404-nut, 520 rice ,anthracite for both

Post by windyhill4.2 » Tue. Dec. 05, 2017 6:00 pm

I can't imagine an EFM520 coming up short heating just 1 house...

Maybe if all the windows were left open.
1800 square feet house would be easy for it.

 
User avatar
hotblast1357
Member
Posts: 5657
Joined: Mon. Mar. 10, 2014 10:06 pm
Location: Peasleeville NY
Stoker Coal Boiler: 1984 Eshland S260 coal gun
Coal Size/Type: Lehigh anthracite pea
Other Heating: air source heat pump, oil furnace

Post by hotblast1357 » Tue. Dec. 05, 2017 6:05 pm

Also, when doing your figuring, are you ever going to change your heating system? From forced air to in floor heat or full baseboard or cast iron radiators?

Just something to keep in mind when designing your manifolds and setup.

 
Qtown1835
Member
Posts: 705
Joined: Sat. Nov. 08, 2014 11:47 am
Location: Quakertown, PA
Stoker Coal Boiler: Keystoker '81 KA4 (online 1/16/17)
Coal Size/Type: WAS Lehigh Rice (TBD)
Other Heating: EFM SPK600

Post by Qtown1835 » Tue. Dec. 05, 2017 6:54 pm

Having just restored and installed a boiler last year I can attest that it is a fun learning experience. Much credit goes out to the guys here who offered insights and solid technical advise during my restoration and installation. Dilly dilly.
As far as pricing is concerned it will vary greatly from region, time of year, willingness of seller, condition, etc. with that said the range would be from a few hundred to several thousand.
Underfed boilers seem to be the most expensive vs grate stokers.
As Pacowy alluded to, some mechanical background and technical proficiency will be helpful for a successful purchase and restoration. Its Similar to buying a used car, if you know what to look for you as a buyer can make an informed purchase with reasonable expectations of restoration costs and potential longevity. As with any used purchase, there are inherent risks, but careful research and preparation will help mitigate a bad buy.
DHW. If you are planning on using the boiler for hot water you have several options, tankless coil, plate exchanger, or indirect. If you plan to zone you would be going indirect or exchanger as a tankless coil does not require a zone and will tie into you hot and cold water lines.

 
Pacowy
Member
Posts: 3555
Joined: Tue. Sep. 04, 2007 10:14 pm
Location: Dalton, MA
Stoker Coal Boiler: H.B. Smith 350 Mills boiler/EFM 85R stoker
Coal Size/Type: Buckwheat/anthracite

Post by Pacowy » Tue. Dec. 05, 2017 7:32 pm

windyhill4.2 wrote:
Tue. Dec. 05, 2017 6:00 pm
I can't imagine an EFM520 coming up short heating just 1 house...

Maybe if all the windows were left open.
1800 square feet house would be easy for it.
Yes, I believe the other 2 boilers on the list were smaller; thought it would be good to check the numbers.

Mike


 
User avatar
windyhill4.2
Member
Posts: 6072
Joined: Fri. Nov. 22, 2013 2:17 pm
Location: Jonestown,Pa.17038
Stoker Coal Boiler: 1960 EFM520 installed in truck box
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Crane 404 with variable blower
Coal Size/Type: 404-nut, 520 rice ,anthracite for both

Post by windyhill4.2 » Tue. Dec. 05, 2017 7:36 pm

Pacowy wrote:
Tue. Dec. 05, 2017 7:32 pm
Yes, I believe the other 2 boilers on the list were smaller; thought it would be good to check the numbers.

Mike
I can easily say that the EFM 520 should handle it...

Of course i am comparing to the load that my 520 carries. :what: :o :D

 
User avatar
Rob R.
Site Moderator
Posts: 17977
Joined: Fri. Dec. 28, 2007 4:26 pm
Location: Chazy, NY
Stoker Coal Boiler: EFM 520
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Chubby Jr

Post by Rob R. » Tue. Dec. 05, 2017 7:37 pm

Hi Scott - your house sounds a lot like mine. Old farmhouse with a lot of changes over the years.

I will pretty much echo Mike's points. Do the math and see what you need. If you need help with a head load calculation I can probably help with that.

If you want to use a coil you don't really need an extra zone for DHW, but it is fine to pipe things with expansion in mind. How many people live in the house?

I also suggest that you become familiar with the make/model boiler you decide to pursue before you make a purchase. I have purchased two EFM 520's from a dealer that were missing parts, and one had a mechanical problem with the stoker. Thankfully I was able to recognize that and the dealer was willing to work with me when I brought the issues to his attention. Buying from someone with after the sale support is good, especially on the first one. I have installed EFM 520's in 5 different houses, so if you have any questions I will do my best to answer them.

Also - do not under estimate the value of basement delivery. These things are heavy, and having an experienced person help you get it into position is usually well worth their asking price.

 
ScottB
Member
Posts: 46
Joined: Wed. Nov. 01, 2017 2:53 pm
Stoker Coal Boiler: Van Wert VA 400 DF
Coal Size/Type: Buck
Other Heating: Jotul wood stove

Post by ScottB » Thu. Dec. 07, 2017 4:33 pm

Pacowy wrote:
Tue. Dec. 05, 2017 5:47 pm
A few initial thoughts:

- I'm confused by the parts of your plan that appear to describe having both coil and a zone for DHW. Could you please clarify that?

- The boilers you list differ in terms of their capacity. I would suggest that you add up the actual capacity of the heat exchanger and baseboard, and add reasonable allowances for DHW load and future expansion. If you want everything to work at the same time, your capacity needs to cover that number (including applicable pickup). (I've been meaning to make the same suggestion in the Town Garage thread.)

- Although some of my fellow members in another thread have disagreed with me on this, I am hesitant to offer advice on basement boiler shopping without making sure the "shopper" knows the risks they are facing and has reasonable skills for dealing with them. In that context, could you please describe briefly your background/experience with boilers and coal equipment?

Thanks.

Mike
The DHW zone is a mistake. I would want to use a coil, Regarding capacity of the three unit, true the EFM 520 has more capacity, I also noticed that because of their adjustable feed rate, they are often applied with feed rates in the 10 to 17 lbs/hr range, loads within the range of the AA130, or VA600 capability. The ability to cover a growth in load is a plus for the EFM.

If I limited myself to just my current experience at any particular point in my life, how would I gain new experience. How would you learn anything new. I have no practical experience with coal or boilers. So what. In my professional life as well as my individual endeavors, I've done many things, ranging from rebuilding 1500 lbs diesel work engines, operating a Christmas tree farm and maintaining and repairing equipment, building pretty good size structures, producing maple syrup and refurbishment of evaporator equipment, and two many hobbies to mention. In my professional life, I designed test & measurement equipment and control systems as well as engineering management in my later years. I have good working relationships with a few machine shops / fabricators for item that I'm not equipped to handle personally, and I'm proficient enough with mechanical CAD to draft anything I may need to have made. I have equipment to handle heavy items. Having said all that, I would prefer to buy from a reputable, knowledgeable dealer. If I had the choice to do the refurbishment work, depending on what it would save me, I would be open to it since I like doing and learning new thing anyway.

 
CDF_USAF
Member
Posts: 124
Joined: Thu. Sep. 26, 2013 7:38 pm
Location: Depew NY
Stoker Coal Boiler: Formerly AA-130

Post by CDF_USAF » Thu. Dec. 07, 2017 8:21 pm

I am far from knowledgeable on boilers, but I'm looking into them and have been for some time. The cost of a used unit varies quite a bit unfortunately and doesn't follow a particular pattern as far as depreciation. I believe a lot has to do with the location of both where the boiler is installed physically(basement/garage) and location(state) There is a practically brand new ahs260 on cl for 3k right now, also a efm520 hi boy for 3.2k, both appear to be in a garage and in great to good condition. The ones in rougher condition or in a basement, I have seen listed from a couple hundred up to around 1500 and can range from a pile of parts to what appears to be a complete assembled unit. The 130's, ahs, aa and eshland's seem to hold right around 1500+ in varying conditions/assembly. These are my observations as someone who has never been inside a boiler and I can only look for the obvious deficiencies and not knowing the particular's of different units.

I did go look at a two locally last winter/spring and saw enough to know it was beyond what I was comfortable paying for with my limited knowledge, they could have been great deals, one as a pile of parts and one was a complete unit, both were not hooked up and outside, neither would let me put water in them there. That gave me enough to walk away. Its like buying a used car, but you don't have a buddy to go with you.

 
Pacowy
Member
Posts: 3555
Joined: Tue. Sep. 04, 2007 10:14 pm
Location: Dalton, MA
Stoker Coal Boiler: H.B. Smith 350 Mills boiler/EFM 85R stoker
Coal Size/Type: Buckwheat/anthracite

Post by Pacowy » Fri. Dec. 08, 2017 9:06 am

CDF_USAF wrote:
Thu. Dec. 07, 2017 8:21 pm
Its like buying a used car, but you don't have a buddy to go with you.
IMO there are very few people who have the experience required to accurately evaluate older coal equipment, and even dealers and side business folks sometimes take units that wind up being usable only for parts. That may not be bad if you are in the business and paid a low price that reflected the risks, but for a homeowner it's time, money and effort that doesn't get you a working boiler, and that potentially is simply wasted if you paid too much for what you were getting.

I think the car analogy is good, though there are a lot more people knowledgeable about cars than about the failure modes of old coal equipment. Assuming you can't get someone with the right background to go basement shopping with you, I think at least some of the dealers and side businesses would be open to helping you save $ by making a deal on a "project" unit that enabled you to do some of the work. That's a way to achieve both an element of assurance regarding the soundness of the unit, and savings consistent with the skills and efforts that you are able to put in.

Mike

 
Pacowy
Member
Posts: 3555
Joined: Tue. Sep. 04, 2007 10:14 pm
Location: Dalton, MA
Stoker Coal Boiler: H.B. Smith 350 Mills boiler/EFM 85R stoker
Coal Size/Type: Buckwheat/anthracite

Post by Pacowy » Fri. Dec. 08, 2017 10:55 am

ScottB,

Good choice on the coil. With adequate boiler capacity they are very economical and deceptively powerful.

My point on the capacities was not so much to put them in order as to suggest that you perform the same type of load analysis as you are doing for the Town Garage. Sometimes when you add up the loads, boilers you started out thinking would be sufficient get ruled out.

I'd like to clarify my point about experience because in no way am I seeking to impugn your own personal experience, or limit opportunities that may exist for you to save money and learn about coal equipment by doing some of the needed refurb work. As background, from 2004-2016 I was virtually 100% coal-only for heat and DHW in 2 different houses, with 3 different stoker boiler configurations based on an EFM 700 stoker, an EFM 900 and AFAIK the largest underfed stoker EFM ever made, the 85R. I had no dealer less than 2 hours away for the stoker equipment, and did basically all of my own maintenance, including rebuilding the 85R stoker. I also have swapped a lot of equipment with various coal equipment dealers and side businesses. On the basis of all of that, I put myself OUTSIDE the category of people who have the experience and skills to meaningfully reduce the risks inherent in basement boiler shopping.

Partly this is because I have become more aware of some of the obstacles faced by basement boiler shoppers. One big reason why people stop using anything is that some component fails and it costs too much to get it working again. And after it stops working, a coal boiler left sitting unused and full of ash in a damp basement can develop lots of other, corrosion-related problems. Then there's the issue that the decision to remove the old coal equipment often corresponds to the sale of the house, with the new owners not only having no interest in burning coal, but also having no useful information about the equipment's history. As a result of such challenges, even with their extensive experience and skills, basically all of the dealers and side businesses I know of periodically pull boilers that they wind up scrapping as unusable. I don't think it's realistic (or economically rational) for any homeowner to imagine that they have, or can easily replicate, the skills of a pro in navigating such hazards. And that's why I believe it is logical and rational to pay a reasonable premium for the skills of a pro in separating the wheat from the chaff, even if the ultimate buyer wants to do some of the actual refurb work and build a detailed understanding of the way the unit operates.

Mike
Last edited by Pacowy on Fri. Dec. 08, 2017 6:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.

 
User avatar
Rob R.
Site Moderator
Posts: 17977
Joined: Fri. Dec. 28, 2007 4:26 pm
Location: Chazy, NY
Stoker Coal Boiler: EFM 520
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Chubby Jr

Post by Rob R. » Fri. Dec. 08, 2017 1:16 pm

windyhill4.2 wrote:
Tue. Dec. 05, 2017 6:00 pm
I can't imagine an EFM520 coming up short heating just 1 house...

Maybe if all the windows were left open.
1800 square feet house would be easy for it.
I have yet to see the heat loss of an insulated house exceed 30 btu's per square foot of heated floor space...and that is based on actual fuel consumption in known conditions, not a heat loss calculation.

I would not hesitate to use any of the boilers mentioned above from a capacity standpoint.

 
Pacowy
Member
Posts: 3555
Joined: Tue. Sep. 04, 2007 10:14 pm
Location: Dalton, MA
Stoker Coal Boiler: H.B. Smith 350 Mills boiler/EFM 85R stoker
Coal Size/Type: Buckwheat/anthracite

Post by Pacowy » Fri. Dec. 08, 2017 1:47 pm

Rob R. wrote:
Fri. Dec. 08, 2017 1:16 pm
I would not hesitate to use any of the boilers mentioned above from a capacity standpoint.
Rob, I would urge you to confer with the high-ranking forum official who declared " Do the math and see what you need." This gentleman said he wanted to include DHW and future expansion, and it seems prudent for him to take a little time to do some numbers. If he can make it work on the back of an envelope he doesn't need to worry; if it's close it's good to be careful.

Mike


Post Reply

Return to “Stoker Coal Boilers Using Anthracite (Hydronic & Steam)”