Town Garage/ Coal Boiler Project

 
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Rob R.
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Post by Rob R. » Fri. Nov. 03, 2017 7:57 pm

ScottB wrote:
Fri. Nov. 03, 2017 1:51 pm
Rob - where was the camera positioned when that photo was taken. That build appears to be at least 120' if at the one end, and 60' wide or better, if I'm interpreting that photo correctly. Do you know who manufactured the building.
I was probably 20' from the back left corner of the building when I took the picture. The building is at least 60' wide, as they park tractor-trailers in it with room to spare. The entire left side is overhead doors, and the front has an office area and parts store/counter. I will see what I can find out about who supplied the building.

One thing I can tell you about a well insulated & tight shop, plan on having an exhaust fan in the peak. When you start the trucks up in the morning, it will stay hazy for a long time without fresh air.


 
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Post by franco b » Fri. Nov. 03, 2017 8:32 pm

Depending on the quantity available, the town could also consider a waste oil heater. Would be excellent for supplementary heat and very useful during shoulder months. Free fuel and possibly already collected from residents in addition to town supplies.

Smaller main boiler with supplementary heat by throwing a switch.

 
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Post by windyhill4.2 » Fri. Nov. 03, 2017 8:55 pm

franco b wrote:
Fri. Nov. 03, 2017 8:32 pm
Depending on the quantity available, the town could also consider a waste oil heater. Would be excellent for supplementary heat and very useful during shoulder months. Free fuel and possibly already collected from residents in addition to town supplies.

Smaller main boiler with supplementary heat by throwing a switch.
Unfortunately,waste oil heaters are very high maintenance, especially when using oil dropped off by various folks. Some folks get rid of their antifreeze,paint & other chemicals this way.Even without extra junk in the oil,all the deposits in it tend to require lots of filters & lots of cleaning the nozzles & burners.
Trucks stop shops benefit the most from waste oil heaters as they control the quality of the oil + they get diesel fuel from changing fuel filters & most times they also mix some heating oil in the mix.Pure waste oil is not as desirable as this mix of oil & heating oil/diesel.

 
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Post by franco b » Fri. Nov. 03, 2017 9:12 pm

windyhill4.2 wrote:
Fri. Nov. 03, 2017 8:55 pm
Unfortunately,waste oil heaters are very high maintenance,
That has not been the experience of a local garage for over ten years. No more maintenance than a home oil burner. They do however, only use oil from customers cars they drain themselves. Most years they have a surplus of oil. I do see your point about all sorts of things being in the oil not handled by the garage. That would have to be addressed.

 
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Post by ricoman2737 » Sat. Nov. 04, 2017 6:53 am

The truck wash facility that was mentioned by CoalJockey on 11/01 at 9:06pm, is listed as Tomcat Truck & Tank Wash, Tunkhannock, Pa. 18657, telephone 570-996-9274, it's on the internet. Talk with the guy that designed, built and operates the 2 boiler system. A very unique system that works like a Timex watch. I've been there.

A word of caution before you start anything - Talk with your local Code Enforcement Officer and Your Insurance Company . They'll be calling the shots on this project. For the most part these 2 agencies probably don't have a clue what the " H Stamp" is.

The Town of Taylor, New York Highway Barn is heated by a Van Wert 1200. Chris Smith is the Highway Super. 607-863-3716. This is the fourth or fifth year of operation. It has worked very good for them. I helped with the installation. Arnie Huntley - A&B Van Wert Coal Stoker Inc. was the installer, telephone 315-653-7883. The best time to call Arnie is around 6pm.

Good Luck - John

 
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Post by CoalJockey » Sat. Nov. 04, 2017 7:02 am

No not quite John

The one I spoke of is not a wash facility but a service and parts garage. This is Moral Brothers on US 30 between Breezewood and Everett, PA. It is about 10 minutes from me, if someone wanted to see it I am sure they would show it. Not sure if they would have lit up yet, just on account that it has been so warm around here.

 
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Post by Rob R. » Sat. Nov. 04, 2017 7:09 am

windyhill4.2 wrote:
Fri. Nov. 03, 2017 8:55 pm
franco b wrote:
Fri. Nov. 03, 2017 8:32 pm
Depending on the quantity available, the town could also consider a waste oil heater. Would be excellent for supplementary heat and very useful during shoulder months. Free fuel and possibly already collected from residents in addition to town supplies.

Smaller main boiler with supplementary heat by throwing a switch.
Unfortunately,waste oil heaters are very high maintenance, especially when using oil dropped off by various folks. Some folks get rid of their antifreeze,paint & other chemicals this way.Even without extra junk in the oil,all the deposits in it tend to require lots of filters & lots of cleaning the nozzles & burners.
Trucks stop shops benefit the most from waste oil heaters as they control the quality of the oil + they get diesel fuel from changing fuel filters & most times they also mix some heating oil in the mix.Pure waste oil is not as desirable as this mix of oil & heating oil/diesel.
David, I would have posted nearly the same thing as you. The local places I know that take in-waste oil from the public have a real battle with their heating equipment. The large shop I posted the pictures of has two huge waste oil boilers in it. Because they do not get enough waste oil from their own fleet of trucks to heat the shop, they were taking it from other people. You guess it, contamination and headaches. They started cutting the waste oil with heating oil, but that got pretty expensive. When their air compressor failed in the middle of the night (the waste oil boilers require compressed air), they decided to get an EFM 900.

I think places like car dealerships that can control their own supply of oil, have a lot better luck with waste oil heating. I'm also sure 5w-30 with transmission fluid mixed in is easier on the equipment than sooty 15w-40.


 
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Post by ScottB » Fri. Nov. 10, 2017 5:14 pm

CapeCoaler - Thanks for the tip regarding Uponor. Lots of good information concerning radiant heat on that site. Design services help offered also hard to say no to. Since the perimeter slabs make up almost 50% of the area, definitely worth careful consideration. From what I'm reading in their material, the existing slab definitely needs to be evaluated. Retrofit in other areas? Maybe I can get a volunteer work crew together to keep cost down. Just thinking.

Rob - Thanks for the tip regarding Arnie, I've made contact. A funny thing happened at our last meeting. My board member who got me on this track in the first place, started telling me about a guy he knows, who's father bought all the rights to the designs of a coal boiler company, and has installed boilers in a number of town garages. A coincidence? I think not. It's a small world we live in...

 
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Post by Dave 1234 » Sun. Nov. 12, 2017 4:59 pm

Scott ,
There are two AHS s1000 F/S on fleabay. They are only a year old and located in Pa.

Dave

 
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Post by ScottB » Mon. Nov. 13, 2017 12:32 am

Thanks Dave, I see them.

I re-computed the heat loss calculation for the building as it exist now with the quanset hut section, and also with the soon to be built new steel building replacement. I also perform the calculation for the building how it was originally constructed and heated. The following is what I now believe is correct.

1) Every bit of capacity of the 230k BTU furnace in the quanset hut section is being fully utilized when the temp drops to design temp. There is no headroom for this furnace and it is probably slightly undersized. According to my calculations, at design temp., this furnace would not shut off and will struggled to keep the temp. close to the thermostat set point. This matches up with what I have observed during the coldest times.

2) When originally constructed and outfitted, the 60' x 80' pole barn did not have the 3 propane heating units described at the start of this post. This 60' x 80' pole building was heated by a 230k BTU furnace only, and apparently did just fine maintaining temp. The propane heating units were only added afterwards because of air quality complaints by those working in the office at the time. Apparently when the trucks were started up in the garage, the diesel fumes got their way into the office area. As a consequence, use of the building furnace ductwork for the office area was discontinued and separate heating units were installed to remedy the problem. When I run the calculations on the building with its original windows, insulation amounts, and heating configuration, the results showed the installed furnace alone have enough capacity with some margin. With the windows changed over to vinyl double pane, the insulation amounts being improved significantly, and the propane heaters heating 1600 sq. ft of office area, the calculation shows the existing furnace is significantly over capacity when heating just the 40' x 80' garage area.

3) When I run the heat loss calculations for the whole, soon to be final building configuration, 60' x 80' pole barn + 60' x 100' steel building together, I'm coming up with a total heat loss of between 280k - 340k, for the air infiltration loss range that I'm estimating. If I'm in error, the cause would most likely be right here. Please note that these results are based on insulation amounts of R30 on the walls, and R40 on the roof since that's what I'm now specifying.

This exercise seems to confirm my earlier size estimate. Having said that, I'll listen to what an expert say.

 
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Post by CapeCoaler » Mon. Nov. 13, 2017 12:46 am

How often are the garage bay doors open...
How windy does it get there...
That is the heat load that needs to be factored in...
a 9x12 hole in the well insulated wall on a windy day...
That is the beauty of the heated floor...
big mass radiating to the coldest part of the space...
Air has very little mass...
With air heat all that or most of that heat blows out the door when opened...
With radiant heat the overwhelming mass of the floor...
is not bothered by a short term loss of the air above it...
In fact it is probably a design benefit when you have running engines in a closed building...
How are you dealing with the exhaust from the running engines...
Hoses or just a general air exhaust...

 
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Post by lzaharis » Mon. Nov. 13, 2017 12:54 am

One of the major issues with in floor heat in a situation like this is simply vehicle weight as the 10 wheel trucks with the plows will weigh more than 22 tons with a truck load of sand or salt plus the vehicle weight and the plow when they park them in the garages.

 
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Post by CapeCoaler » Mon. Nov. 13, 2017 1:01 am

Why is it an issue?...
A jet weighs far more than a plow truck...
You design the floor for both weight and heat load...
Radiant heat works well in hangers and garages...

 
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Post by hotblast1357 » Mon. Nov. 13, 2017 5:21 am

Weight is absolutely no issue as long as the floor is designed for it with the correct amount of reinforcement and concrete thickness.

 
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Post by CoalJockey » Mon. Nov. 13, 2017 6:29 am

We run radiant floor heat and there is usually one tri-axle parked along with two loaders, the combined weight would be about 40,000 or so. There have been times we have had two trucks in there side by side, that’s over 60,000. I have never had to park a loaded one in there but I would do it without reservation.

It’s pretty common in this area among the coal haulers.


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