Town Garage/ Coal Boiler Project

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ScottB
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Stoker Coal Boiler: Van Wert VA 400 DF
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Post by ScottB » Wed. Nov. 01, 2017 6:03 pm

I've been intermittently following this forum over the last 8 months or so, to glean as much information as I can of the practical use of coal stoker boilers as a primary heat source. Because of where I am located, Southern Adirondacks NY, and having a large woodlot, personally I have never considered any other fuel besides wood. Interestingly, as I became more familiar with anthracite coal, that has changed somewhat. Anyway, my interest in learning from this site didn't start with my personal preferences, but rather a suggestion from one our town's councilman, who happens to be a logger during the winter and a full time sawyer the rest of the year. This past year, this life long wood burner, made the switch to a hand fired coal unit and stated he will never look back, and suggested our town strongly consider switching to a stoker coal boiler to heat our municipal building and highway garage. To make a long story short, we will be replacing a very old 3600 sq. ft section (insulation virtually non-existent) of our highway garage with a 6000 sq. ft pretty well insulated steel building. After having reviewed the historical heating cost/ usage of the building in its current configuration, considered our current heating system components (2 - 230,000 btu thermal pride oil furnaces + 3 vented propane wall mounted units in the office area), and doing a theoretical heat lost calculation for the soon to be enlarged municipal building/ garage (approx. 11,000 sq ft total), I came to the conclusion that it would be best to unify the heating system based on a less expensive fuel, coal, and a coal stoker boiler of approximately 500,000 BTU would do the trick. I have verify that I am in the ballpark by talking with Jeff at AHS, and Keystoker's main office, and their local reps site visit. So let me get to the point, AHS offers an S-500 unit, Keystoker offers a KG-22. Both are of similar BTU and should do the trick with enough headroom. I could also go with two smaller tandem ~250,000 btu units, which might be better in handling differing loads seen year round and would offer more choice in manufacturers. Cost is always a factor, but in this case I want to install the best solution for the long term and our decision won't be greatly affected by unit cost differences since overall system installation cost and long term savings will dwarf any differences in boiler cost. The main considerations are performance, reliability, and ease of making the system mostly headache free. Any system would need to be installed with auto-feed auger, and set up to have an extra large ash pit/bin where removal would be done with a loader or auger. Initially I was leaning towards the AHS S-500 with the new extra sized coal bin on wheels (easy loader dump), but after reading 57 pages of combustion bumps, I've paused. It does seem as a result of that discussion, there is a better understanding of how to more finely operate boilers of that design, and it seems like this may not be a big deal. Please offer your takeaway. I don't expect an installation to be completely hands off, and as a group we're fairly mechanically adept and good at keeping things running. I feel we have a good handle on the plumbing/ zoning arrangement the boiler(s) will be feeding.
Given the information I presented, which stoker boiler(s) would your experience tell you to go with. I know I'm asking a lot, being a first time poster and all. Thanks in advance for any replies.


 
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hotblast1357
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Location: Peasleeville NY
Stoker Coal Boiler: 1984 Eshland S260 coal gun
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Other Heating: air source heat pump, oil furnace

Post by hotblast1357 » Wed. Nov. 01, 2017 6:28 pm

I installed an eshland 260, which is the older model of the ahs 260, haven’t had a single issue with any puff backs, idles great also.

You might as well heat the domestic hot water in the shop also.

Auger feed coal and auger ash removal are very practical with the ahs.

Are you guys going to receive tractor trailer loads straight from the mine? Or take your own dump trucks to the mine?

 
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hotblast1357
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Stoker Coal Boiler: 1984 Eshland S260 coal gun
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Other Heating: air source heat pump, oil furnace

Post by hotblast1357 » Wed. Nov. 01, 2017 6:45 pm

The extra sized coal bin on wheels by the way is actually the extra large ash bin, not for the coal.

I would suggest auger feeding the stock hopper and auger removal of the ash out of the stock base to outside.

I would also think two 260s would do you better, so that you could run one of them in the shoulder months for heat and your guys domestic hot water, then when the cold sets in, turn on the other one.



Where abouts are you?

 
lzaharis
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Other Heating: kerosene for dual fuel Keystoker/unused

Post by lzaharis » Wed. Nov. 01, 2017 7:00 pm

Your lucky to have a keystoker dealer that is willing to install a boiler for you.

You have to keep in mind that the flat grate keystokers will not keep a fire in the event of a power loss and when the power comes back on the ash pit will be full of un burned coal.

The combustion bumps you speak of were related to the new owner changing the design of the coal guns, The old owner of the company bought the company back from the new owners and reinstated the old design to prevent the issue from recurring.

There is no reason you could not use an S500 with steam and hang steam radiators wherever they are needed
That is unless you have heating appliances already that you wish to reuse.

Just keep in mind that a steam system does not require circulators to move hot water and you are only using
1.5 -2 PSIG steam to heat an entire building and also heat all your hot water for showers and washing vehicles
unless you have a Steam Jenny of course.
Last edited by lzaharis on Wed. Nov. 01, 2017 7:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.

 
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hotblast1357
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Posts: 5657
Joined: Mon. Mar. 10, 2014 10:06 pm
Location: Peasleeville NY
Stoker Coal Boiler: 1984 Eshland S260 coal gun
Coal Size/Type: Lehigh anthracite pea
Other Heating: air source heat pump, oil furnace

Post by hotblast1357 » Wed. Nov. 01, 2017 7:02 pm

lzaharis wrote:
Wed. Nov. 01, 2017 7:00 pm
There is no reason you could not use an S500 with steam and hang radiators wherever they are needed
That is unless you have heating appliances already that you wish to reuse.

Just keep in mind that a steam system does not require circulators to move hot water and you are only using
1.5 -2 PSIG steam to heat an entire building and also heat all your hot water for showers and washing vehicles
unless you have a Steam Jenny of course.

The OP has not mentioned anything about steam.

 
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Rob R.
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Post by Rob R. » Wed. Nov. 01, 2017 7:08 pm

Scott, you are off to a good start. I would certainly want a bin that can be serviced with a skidsteer or loader, and an easy way to handle the ashes.

I also suggest you talk to Arnie, the owner of A&B Van Wert. He has refurbished units in the size you are looking at, and experience installing them for Highway Departments. I am pretty sure the town of Taylor is heating their Highway Dept. Garage with a big Van Wert, and they would probably be happy you tell you about it.

http://www.vanwertboilers.com

 
lzaharis
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Stoker Coal Boiler: Keystoker KAA-4-1 dual fuel boiler
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Coal Size/Type: rice
Other Heating: kerosene for dual fuel Keystoker/unused

Post by lzaharis » Wed. Nov. 01, 2017 7:12 pm

hotblast1357 wrote:
Wed. Nov. 01, 2017 7:02 pm
lzaharis wrote:
Wed. Nov. 01, 2017 7:00 pm
There is no reason you could not use an S500 with steam and hang radiators wherever they are needed
That is unless you have heating appliances already that you wish to reuse.

Just keep in mind that a steam system does not require circulators to move hot water and you are only using
1.5 -2 PSIG steam to heat an entire building and also heat all your hot water with a domestic hot water coil for showers and washing vehicles unless you have a Steam Jenny of course.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The OP has not mentioned anything about steam.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I know he did not mention steam for heating.

I mentioned steam as an option as they have forced air for heating now and a steam to hot air heat exchanger system could or would be worth examining as they are very common in use and any existing duct work could be reused with a little tin work,
but that is totally dependent on how the current heating system is laid out.

BUT, as I said steam radiators with smaller diameter pipe runs could be wall hung and be very cost effective to heat large areas and also allow for adequate slope to let the condensate flow back to the boilers steam chest.with no issues.

An S500 could be placed in the same area the coal storage is located in and the steam lines would be run overhead on a common header pipe to the radiators or to any steam to forced hot air appliance hanging in the ceiling.

The S500 hopper could be auger fed with a Westfield grain auger from a coal pile under a lean too and a second Westfield grain auger could be used to carry away the coal ash and clinkers to a roll off container by incorporating in the design a floor pit for the coal ashes to drop in. its not like they have to deal with bottom ash in a pulverized coal boilers wet boiler sump that has collect the bottom ash to be pumped out and later dried to be disposed of.
Last edited by lzaharis on Wed. Nov. 01, 2017 7:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.


 
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hotblast1357
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Stoker Coal Boiler: 1984 Eshland S260 coal gun
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Other Heating: air source heat pump, oil furnace

Post by hotblast1357 » Wed. Nov. 01, 2017 7:36 pm

Or they can simply run hot water to modines, or radiators, or baseboard.

Coal ash can be augered outside and mixed in with the sand used on our roadways. No need for a pit in the floor either.

 
lzaharis
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Location: Ithaca, New York
Stoker Coal Boiler: Keystoker KAA-4-1 dual fuel boiler
Hand Fed Coal Boiler: former switzer CWW100-sold
Coal Size/Type: rice
Other Heating: kerosene for dual fuel Keystoker/unused

Post by lzaharis » Wed. Nov. 01, 2017 7:45 pm

One pipe low pressure steam of 1.5 PSIG is still simpler to install and use in large heating systems with soldered copper pipe joints. The entire Empire State Building has been heated with low pressure steam just as as 30 Rockefeller center is to this day.

 
lzaharis
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Joined: Sun. Mar. 25, 2007 8:41 pm
Location: Ithaca, New York
Stoker Coal Boiler: Keystoker KAA-4-1 dual fuel boiler
Hand Fed Coal Boiler: former switzer CWW100-sold
Coal Size/Type: rice
Other Heating: kerosene for dual fuel Keystoker/unused

Post by lzaharis » Wed. Nov. 01, 2017 7:58 pm

hotblast1357 wrote:
Wed. Nov. 01, 2017 7:36 pm
Or they can simply run hot water to modines, or radiators, or baseboard.

Coal ash can be augered outside and mixed in with the sand used on our roadways. No need for a pit in the floor either.
Not without approval with an MSDS sheet and conforming to NYSOGS standards for highway deicing materials.

 
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hotblast1357
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Post by hotblast1357 » Wed. Nov. 01, 2017 8:02 pm

Lol would you just relax.

 
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hotblast1357
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Post by hotblast1357 » Wed. Nov. 01, 2017 8:10 pm

Scott just wants too know about stokers.

I’m sure he could care less about the pain in the a** msds sheets that have nothing to do with the sand on the road ways, and with nysdot putting there noise in his small town municipality.

 
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Rob R.
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Post by Rob R. » Wed. Nov. 01, 2017 8:18 pm

Leon, unless Scott asks for more information about steam please hold off on any other information about it. Steam has its benefits, but it is basically unknown by most HVAC folks and unlikely to have any support in a small township.

I would consider two smaller boilers if it was going to be something I could tend to, but if I was going to depend on hired help I would probably just have one big unit. The last thing anyone is going to want to do is light the second boiler when it is -20 outside. Oil and Gas is one thing - you can bring the second boiler online with controls, and even rotate which one carries most of the load. Coal is different, someone needs to light the second boiler...and when it comes time to shut down #2, I doubt anyone will be there to clean it.

 
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hotblast1357
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Joined: Mon. Mar. 10, 2014 10:06 pm
Location: Peasleeville NY
Stoker Coal Boiler: 1984 Eshland S260 coal gun
Coal Size/Type: Lehigh anthracite pea
Other Heating: air source heat pump, oil furnace

Post by hotblast1357 » Wed. Nov. 01, 2017 8:25 pm

Lol msds sheets have nothing to do with the sand put down on roads.

And OGS isn’t putting there noise in his township I bet.

 
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hotblast1357
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Joined: Mon. Mar. 10, 2014 10:06 pm
Location: Peasleeville NY
Stoker Coal Boiler: 1984 Eshland S260 coal gun
Coal Size/Type: Lehigh anthracite pea
Other Heating: air source heat pump, oil furnace

Post by hotblast1357 » Wed. Nov. 01, 2017 8:29 pm

Very good point rob has mentioned also about the cleaning and maintenance.

You could maybe elect someone out of the bunch to watch over and inspect the boiler or boilers once a week or something.

Set the up with a preventative maintenance program along with the plow trucks or something, so that the boiler or boilers get properly cleaned and checked.

Are you going to put them in there own sealed off room? As I’m sure there are gasoline fumes in the shop that you do not want a flame near.


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