KA6 install help needed for self install noob

Post Reply
 
not2bad
Member
Posts: 49
Joined: Thu. Feb. 02, 2017 6:29 am

Post by not2bad » Thu. Oct. 12, 2017 12:10 pm

So after months of back and fourth inside or outside and types of boilers I just purchased a KA6 Keystoker. Who would of thought with tax $6000 just for the boiler? Oh well. I have an all electric home 3ooo square feethome I purchased and am living in. Ikr? It was a 1 story ranch and someone added a 2 story addition. Two air handler forced air electric coil add in heaters. They are about 60000 btu heaters on each. Yup, costs a fortune to run. Coal seemed to be my best option. East Ohio gas would run just the feeder line from their hub down the road for $215k out of my pocket and not to the house. lol Anyways, couple questions on install if I may ask. I am going to use a swg direct vent outside the basement wall. The place has no stack. I am going to put heat exchangers in the plenums and wire to run off the existing fans. My major problem is plumbing sizes. It is 35 feet from boiler to 1st furnace and 15 feet more to second. I am torn on size and type piping. Do I reduce 1" off a 1 1/4 reducer right past boiler to feed the first and then tee off the same 1" and go to the next furnace and then return to boiler same way? Is that enough volume for heat? Copper sure is pricey. Do I use 1 or 1 1/4 copper and tee off 1" at heat exchangers? I thought of pex and 1 1/4 pex id is same as copper 1" so would I use 1 1/4 or 1 1/2 pex? Maybe go from the 1 1/4 copper at feed and use either 1 or 1 1/4 black pipe and connect to heat exchangers with a couple feet copper and then brass adapters to the black pipe? I'm on tight budget and but want to do it right first time and get enough heat. I have well water with some sulfur and a water conditioner but no sulphur treatment. Which piping works best with that? I keep reading about overheating dangers using pex as well and if I would use oxygen barrier pex or course but what is a good cheap brand? Would you use crimps and clamps with the pex? I'm stumped and at a standstill on best size piping and type? Not much insulation in house but can't remedy prob till next year when my budget recovers. I appreciate any and all advice or experience you can offer. Thanks in advance.


 
User avatar
hotblast1357
Member
Posts: 5657
Joined: Mon. Mar. 10, 2014 10:06 pm
Location: Peasleeville NY
Stoker Coal Boiler: 1984 Eshland S260 coal gun
Coal Size/Type: Lehigh anthracite pea
Other Heating: air source heat pump, oil furnace

Post by hotblast1357 » Thu. Oct. 12, 2017 4:52 pm

You also need auto fill and backflow preventor valve, expansion tank, air scoop, all has to be on the feed side, can be done with 1/1/4 black iron or copper, there are certain measurements and distances for the air scoop, you can then install a manifold and run 1” pex to each air exchanger, I believe 1” pex is good for like 80,000 BTU’s, but of coarse that depends on pump size, you also need to size a circulator, there are many many options and ways.

BadgerInsulatedPipe.com

Great site for pex and heat exchangers and fittings.

 
User avatar
Rob R.
Site Moderator
Posts: 17979
Joined: Fri. Dec. 28, 2007 4:26 pm
Location: Chazy, NY
Stoker Coal Boiler: EFM 520
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Chubby Jr

Post by Rob R. » Thu. Oct. 12, 2017 8:12 pm

New stoker boilers are always pricey - that is why most of us install used ones. You still have a lot of things to buy to finish the install.

What is the heat load of each zone?

Does the 3000 sq ft include the basement?

 
not2bad
Member
Posts: 49
Joined: Thu. Feb. 02, 2017 6:29 am

Post by not2bad » Thu. Oct. 12, 2017 8:35 pm

Thanks. I know I have more to buy and that's why I'm costing it all out to get the best I can get for the money. There was no used ones to buy or for almost the same as new. Confusion exists for me on size and type of piping. Some say use only black pipe around the boiler then go to copper. Some go copper to pex. Some just copper all way around. Black pipe rusts but says it also adds support for the expansion tank, L or M copper, or oxygen barrier Type-B pex. Different ids different flow rates. I'm not sure if it includes the basement. Big house though. Original section prob 1000 ft/sq'd and the new addition 2000 ft/sq'd. the furnaces plenums are prob 15 ft. apart. offset from each other. Want to have enough heat and thought I could also regulate at the heat exchangers with ball valves to control flow rate between the two air handlers somewhat. More flow to bigger area. The heat exchanger at the bigger area will be 19 x 20 and 18x18 fits the smaller plenum.

Attachments

ISah3z1owu49a30000000000.jpg
.JPG | 84.7KB | ISah3z1owu49a30000000000.jpg
ISmikuu37yz0g30000000000.jpg
.JPG | 101KB | ISmikuu37yz0g30000000000.jpg

 
User avatar
Rob R.
Site Moderator
Posts: 17979
Joined: Fri. Dec. 28, 2007 4:26 pm
Location: Chazy, NY
Stoker Coal Boiler: EFM 520
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Chubby Jr

Post by Rob R. » Thu. Oct. 12, 2017 8:51 pm

Is the Keystoker going in the basement under the single story portion of the home?

 
not2bad
Member
Posts: 49
Joined: Thu. Feb. 02, 2017 6:29 am

Post by not2bad » Thu. Oct. 12, 2017 9:40 pm

Yes, inside the one story between the cellar doorway and left side of the house.

 
User avatar
Rob R.
Site Moderator
Posts: 17979
Joined: Fri. Dec. 28, 2007 4:26 pm
Location: Chazy, NY
Stoker Coal Boiler: EFM 520
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Chubby Jr

Post by Rob R. » Fri. Oct. 13, 2017 5:55 am

I would price out having a chimney put up. Looks like it would be pretty simple given the construction of your home. Long term you would be happier with a chimney.

Piping the boiler with 1.25" black iron or copper, and then running 1" pex to each air handler would do what you want. 3/4" copper may be an option also, depending on the heating load and size of the heat exchanger.

Is there a basement under the 2-story addition?


 
not2bad
Member
Posts: 49
Joined: Thu. Feb. 02, 2017 6:29 am

Post by not2bad » Fri. Oct. 13, 2017 6:15 am

Yes there is pretty big basement. I was thinking about a chimney there but have to get a power vent for now because winter is around the corner. I like the idea of 1-1/4 black pipe for the run and around the boiler itself but wonder about rust. Is there an additive that can be used to help prevent any rust?

 
lzaharis
Member
Posts: 2365
Joined: Sun. Mar. 25, 2007 8:41 pm
Location: Ithaca, New York
Stoker Coal Boiler: Keystoker KAA-4-1 dual fuel boiler
Hand Fed Coal Boiler: former switzer CWW100-sold
Coal Size/Type: rice
Other Heating: kerosene for dual fuel Keystoker/unused

Post by lzaharis » Fri. Oct. 13, 2017 2:50 pm

You need to keep in mind that the water in your system is only going to provide you with so many BTU per gallon no matter the size of the pipe used to feed the two heat exchangers.

You can purchase Fernox from a plumbing supply house if you are worried about boiler treatment/rust.
I had my hand fed on line for 33 years and all we had was black water from all the years it was in the boiler.

If you use black iron pipe you can flush what little cutting oil that enters the boiler water out of the boiler
at least once if you are worried about debris and metal filings.

Cleaning the internal and external threads with pipe/boiler wire brushes and properly taping or using enough pipe dope one thread back from the end is normally all that is needed.

Ideally if you can plumb all the piping including the bypass loop in a module to have the circulator and other other items like the back flow preventer, pressure regulator, isolation flanges for the circulator all in the same module you can speed up the plumbing job by just using a couple of unions to connect it to the boiler with black iron pipe and transition to copper using bronze ball valves.

you can avoid a lot of issues with air bubbles by installing boiler drain valves on the return to boiler loops to power purge the air out of the system for both exchangers with cold water and you will have very little air left to bleed out of the boiler if you follow Dan Monahans plumbing illustrations which are very well drawn examples in his books Classic Hydronics and Pumping Away which shows you how to install circulator on the top of your boiler to pull the air bubbles up and out of your boiler making it less noisy and eliminating crawling around on your hands and knees bleeding baseboard radiators if you install any.

Before you connect to the water supply you can use low pressure air using soap bubbles to see if you have any leaks before you connect the water feed line to the boiler plumbing otherwise you will have to drain down the boiler to fix the leak.

 
User avatar
skobydog
Member
Posts: 275
Joined: Mon. Jun. 10, 2013 9:53 am
Location: Greenfield MA
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Hitzer 50-93
Coal Size/Type: Nut Anthracite

Post by skobydog » Sun. Oct. 15, 2017 10:02 am

Rob R. wrote:
Fri. Oct. 13, 2017 5:55 am

Piping the boiler with 1.25" black iron or copper, and then running 1" pex to each air handler would do what you want.
:yes:

I just installed my boiler this year. I used mostly black iron and pex because copper seemed pricey.

Here's a suggestion. Return lines would be the same diameters.
supply.jpg
.JPG | 26.8KB | supply.jpg

 
lzaharis
Member
Posts: 2365
Joined: Sun. Mar. 25, 2007 8:41 pm
Location: Ithaca, New York
Stoker Coal Boiler: Keystoker KAA-4-1 dual fuel boiler
Hand Fed Coal Boiler: former switzer CWW100-sold
Coal Size/Type: rice
Other Heating: kerosene for dual fuel Keystoker/unused

Post by lzaharis » Sun. Oct. 15, 2017 10:53 am

The open basement lends itself to hanging a steel expansion tank under the floor joists and eliminating the need for an air scoop and automatic air bleeder as the automatic air bleeder will fail and leak. I ended up installing a ball valve on top of the air scoop and under the automatic air bleeder of the hand fed boiler to shut the water off to change the single air bleeder two years before I installed the steel expansion tank with the new coal stoker.
Last edited by lzaharis on Sun. Oct. 15, 2017 11:04 am, edited 1 time in total.

 
User avatar
Rob R.
Site Moderator
Posts: 17979
Joined: Fri. Dec. 28, 2007 4:26 pm
Location: Chazy, NY
Stoker Coal Boiler: EFM 520
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Chubby Jr

Post by Rob R. » Sun. Oct. 15, 2017 11:04 am

lzaharis wrote:
Sun. Oct. 15, 2017 10:53 am
I ended up installing a ball valve on top of the air scoop and under the automatic air bleeder to shut the water off to change the single air bleeder two years before I installed the steel expansion tank with the new coal stoker.
That is a good idea right from the start. Assuming the system is designed correctly, after you run the boiler for a few weeks and the system is totally free of air, you can just close that valve...so the automatic vent will never leak.

 
lzaharis
Member
Posts: 2365
Joined: Sun. Mar. 25, 2007 8:41 pm
Location: Ithaca, New York
Stoker Coal Boiler: Keystoker KAA-4-1 dual fuel boiler
Hand Fed Coal Boiler: former switzer CWW100-sold
Coal Size/Type: rice
Other Heating: kerosene for dual fuel Keystoker/unused

Post by lzaharis » Sun. Oct. 15, 2017 11:08 am

I changed my system to a steel expansion tank to eliminate having issues with a bladder tank again like I had before after losing my well from a cave in as an automatic water feeder is no longer needed and the system cannot become water logged as the water feed is shut off.

The other reason was to eliminate the large diameter plumbing runs needed with an air scoop and bladder tank where the pump is on top of the boiler and a 3/4" feeder line to the steel expansion tank is all that is needed forever.

The added ten gallons of water in the system lets me run my system at much lower pressures as well and now I have 54+- gallons of water in my system now.

 
User avatar
Rob R.
Site Moderator
Posts: 17979
Joined: Fri. Dec. 28, 2007 4:26 pm
Location: Chazy, NY
Stoker Coal Boiler: EFM 520
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Chubby Jr

Post by Rob R. » Sun. Oct. 15, 2017 11:17 am

You do not need a long pipe run with a real air eliminator, only with a scoop.

I am all for using a steel compression tank if there is already one there, but I can't imagine it is cost effective to buy a new one. I have installed several coal boilers with plain airscoops and a single automatic air vent, and they all run excellent.

 
lzaharis
Member
Posts: 2365
Joined: Sun. Mar. 25, 2007 8:41 pm
Location: Ithaca, New York
Stoker Coal Boiler: Keystoker KAA-4-1 dual fuel boiler
Hand Fed Coal Boiler: former switzer CWW100-sold
Coal Size/Type: rice
Other Heating: kerosene for dual fuel Keystoker/unused

Post by lzaharis » Sun. Oct. 15, 2017 3:17 pm

Having a steel expansion tank and a closed system in my case with the KAA-4-1 saves me from having to worry about having to have a jet pump on hand or find a plumber with a jet pump to add water from a pail if I lose my water supply again as it cannot lose water unless there is a catastrophic failure like a boiler blow off AND also having to create system pressure in a heating loop plus having to bleed baseboard radiator. The 10 gallons of water above the boiler aids in creating a system with low pressure when I start heating.

Rob can I upload copied images from "Pumping Away" to the forum to show how easy it is to plumb in steel expansion tank and a bladder tank by creating a piping module that is simply connected using union fittings?


Post Reply

Return to “Stoker Coal Boilers Using Anthracite (Hydronic & Steam)”