Let's Install a Keystoker K-A6

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NEWBIEonDUTY
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Post by NEWBIEonDUTY » Tue. Aug. 08, 2017 9:17 pm

Hello,

Quick backstory:
We just bought a new house that is heated with propane and by the fact I am here probably tells you all you I'd rather burn coal :yes: I have been spending most of my free time on here learning as much as I can the past few days, but have a few questions I was hoping someone could assist with before I order my new boiler.

My house was built in 1973 and is 2300sqft, the boiler will be located in the basement and somehow be hooked up to the propane boiler. The reason I say somehow is because I am conflicted, I like the idea of series, BUT my plan is to take the stack off of that boiler to use the chimney for the new one, then in the event the K-A6 goes down, I would just switch the flu, which that being the case, maybe parallel would just make more sense?

I have decided to buy a Keystoker K-A6 for a few reasons, cost, recommendations on here as well as it being available locally. I was quoted $6,000 + tax and can't find anywhere online or in this forum to tell me if that is a decent price or not?

My house has two zones, currently controlled by Honeywell zone valves, I am going to add a third zone as well with this project and am considering using a Taco zone valve controller. Is that a reasonable option?

For the circulator pump: Grundflo Alpha (supply side)

Air scoop with a #60 Expansion tank with the auto fill in the bottom of the scoop

What comes included with the boiler? ie saftey valve/ aquastat? barometric damper? timer?

I know the boiler is tapped at 1 1/4" and I plan on running the header in B.I. Should I just use 1 1/4' x 3/4" Tees with some dielectrical unions?

Last question for now involves DHW. I plan to run this boiler ear around for that purpose, it it better to keep it on demand, or to use my current tank as storage? I was thinking of removing the boiler drain on the bottom and having the boiler feed the tank that way then out the top with a pump constantly circulating the water that way then on the feed to the house putting a mixing valve.

Thank you for all the valuable information on this site, I can't wait to start this process. If All goes well with the answers I get I am going to order it this weekend and get started!


 
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Richard S.
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Post by Richard S. » Tue. Aug. 08, 2017 9:39 pm

NEWBIEonDUTY wrote:BUT my plan is to take the stack off of that boiler to use the chimney for the new one, then in the event the K-A6 goes down,
Blasphemy! ;) Another possibility is to powervent the propane.

Last question for now involves DHW. I plan to run this boiler ear around for that purpose, it it better to keep it on demand, or to use my current tank as storage?
The benefit of having a tank is you can turn it on if you turn the boiler off. At my parents house it runs right into the tank, no thermosiphon or anything like that. The tank is switched off and there is always plenty of hot water. If you turn the boiler off for maintenance or whatever you can switch the tank on.
I was thinking of removing the boiler drain on the bottom and having the boiler feed the tank that way then out the top with a pump constantly circulating the water that way then on the feed to the house putting a mixing valve.
You can do this with a thermosiphon, no pump needed.

Help on Plumbing for Thermosiphon

 
Qtown1835
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Other Heating: EFM SPK600

Post by Qtown1835 » Wed. Aug. 09, 2017 9:45 am

Welcome. I just did a similar install this winter with the KA6 smaller sibling the KA4. Thanks to all of the help from the guys here, the install went well and the boiler performed better than expected.

On to some of your questions.

If you call Keystoker directly a human will answer the phone and provide you with all the information on the boiler you could ever want. They are super friendly and helpful people.

You may want to look at the total radiation available in the house. I have a sneaky suspicion that the #60 ET may not be large enough. Extrol Tank Link

If you are looking to buy, nipples, fittings, etc. you should check out supplyhouse dot com.

 
lzaharis
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Other Heating: kerosene for dual fuel Keystoker/unused

Post by lzaharis » Wed. Aug. 09, 2017 4:45 pm

NEWBIEonDUTY wrote:Hello,

Quick backstory:
We just bought a new house that is heated with propane and by the fact I am here probably tells you all you I'd rather burn coal :yes: I have been spending most of my free time on here learning as much as I can the past few days, but have a few questions I was hoping someone could assist with before I order my new boiler.

My house was built in 1973 and is 2300sqft, the boiler will be located in the basement and somehow be hooked up to the propane boiler. The reason I say somehow is because I am conflicted, I like the idea of series, BUT my plan is to take the stack off of that boiler to use the chimney for the new one, then in the event the K-A6 goes down, I would just switch the flu, which that being the case, maybe parallel would just make more sense?

I have decided to buy a Keystoker K-A6 for a few reasons, cost, recommendations on here as well as it being available locally. I was quoted $6,000 + tax and can't find anywhere online or in this forum to tell me if that is a decent price or not?

My house has two zones, currently controlled by Honeywell zone valves, I am going to add a third zone as well with this project and am considering using a Taco zone valve controller. Is that a reasonable option?

For the circulator pump: Grundflo Alpha (supply side)

Air scoop with a #60 Expansion tank with the auto fill in the bottom of the scoop

What comes included with the boiler? ie saftey valve/ aquastat? barometric damper? timer?

I know the boiler is tapped at 1 1/4" and I plan on running the header in B.I. Should I just use 1 1/4' x 3/4" Tees with some dielectrical unions?

Last question for now involves DHW. I plan to run this boiler ear around for that purpose, it it better to keep it on demand, or to use my current tank as storage? I was thinking of removing the boiler drain on the bottom and having the boiler feed the tank that way then out the top with a pump constantly circulating the water that way then on the feed to the house putting a mixing valve.

Thank you for all the valuable information on this site, I can't wait to start this process. If All goes well with the answers I get I am going to order it this weekend and get started!


==================================================================================================


Before you open your wallet and wave goodbye to all the $100.00 bills please purchase two paperbacks "Pumping Away" and Classic Hydronics" written by Dan Holohan who is an expert on plumbing having written many books about it if you really want an education about hydronic heating.

Buy the books first, read them, read them again, then send me a PM and I will respond to your inquiry.

 
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David...
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Post by David... » Thu. Aug. 10, 2017 9:20 am

A #30 expansion tank should be enough for your system.

David

 
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CoalJockey
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Post by CoalJockey » Thu. Aug. 10, 2017 10:13 am

lzaharis wrote:

Before you open your wallet and wave goodbye to all the $100.00 bills please purchase two paperbacks "Pumping Away" and Classic Hydronics" written by Dan Holohan who is an expert on plumbing having written many books about it if you really want an education about hydronic heating.

Buy the books first, read them, read them again, then send me a PM and I will respond to your inquiry.
+1

These are mandatory reading if you wish to be a member of good standing in this here, the worlds finest heating forum. If you disobey we will flog you with empty ash tubs till you do! :lol: :D

 
NEWBIEonDUTY
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Post by NEWBIEonDUTY » Fri. Aug. 11, 2017 7:10 am

Still working on my plan....
Thanks to some well thought out and good advise from a forum member here, I have decide to open my mind to some other manufactures besides the Keystoker and would Love to hear some more opinions from you all on what I should do here, I realize it might cost some more money and that's ok, as long as I make the right decision.

To reiterate, I'd like this boiler to heat my home as well as domestic hot water year round.

One of the boilers suggested to me over the KA6 was the AHS 130, my first concern is I can buy the KA6 locally and have dealer support, where as with the AHS i think I would have to pay to drop freight?

Stoker vs coal gun for those hot summer days Im trying to heat DHW.

Please give me any input or opinions that you have, as I probably have to make this decision and get plumbing very soon, Thanks again!!!


 
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Richard S.
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Post by Richard S. » Fri. Aug. 11, 2017 8:11 am

NEWBIEonDUTY wrote:Still working on my plan....
Thanks to some well thought out and good advise from a forum member here, I have decide to open my mind to some other manufactures besides the Keystoker and would Love to hear some more opinions from you all on what I should do here,
Around here that's like asking who makes the best Pizza when you live in an area with lot of good Pizza places. It's rare that someone is not happy with their purchase. One thing you may want to consider is auger fed, it cost you more but lifting those bags or buckets into a hopper gets old quick. With auger fed like an EFM you run the auger right into the coal bin, enclose the bin and you can eliminate a lot of dust. Inside the bin use a 55 gallon drum over the auger as your hopper. That's going to hold about 400 pounds of coal. Only downside is the auger is susceptible to binding if something big gets in it, rare but does happen.
To reiterate, I'd like this boiler to heat my home as well as domestic hot water year round.
Any savings are minimal in the summer unless you use a lot of hot water however the important thing here is running 365 days a year. An idle coal boiler is a rusting coal boiler.

 
Pacowy
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Post by Pacowy » Fri. Aug. 11, 2017 10:03 am

A Keystoker KA-6 is substantially more powerful than an AHS 130, and holds a large reservoir of hot water. Depending upon your DHW load there is a good chance you could make your DHW from a coil without need for an indirect, etc.

The flat grate of the Keystoker doesn't hold the fire very long without running, so to make DHW in summer you'd probably use some extra coal on timer cycles. Should be small relative to total annual burn. AHS/AA and underfed stokers generally hold the fire better in summer. This might be a tie-breaker but not a deal-breaker.

Some AHS users had issues with puffbacks; maybe someone with AHS expertise could provide a rundown on the status of that.

Mike

 
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coaledsweat
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Post by coaledsweat » Fri. Aug. 11, 2017 10:22 am

Puffbacks are a result of too much fresh coal on the fire. It has nothing to do with the device itself.

 
Pacowy
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Post by Pacowy » Fri. Aug. 11, 2017 10:38 am

Puffbacks don't occur with underfed or flatbed stokers. There was a 57-page thread discussing causes/cures in the AHS 130 - lsayre @ AHS S130 Coalgun- Puffbacks & Explosions .

Mike

 
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lsayre
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Post by lsayre » Fri. Aug. 11, 2017 2:32 pm

Regarding the puff-backs. In the end it was discovered that only a small handful of AHS Coal Gun buyers who purchased them right after a failed design change was implemented by a new and short-term owner of the company had this serious issue. The old owner quickly moved in, re-purchased the company, and then just as quickly discovered that that the "cost saving" design flaw which greatly accelerated the speed of the ashing cycle was causing the serious puff-backs, wherein he instituted a fix to the satisfaction of those scant few who ended up with the faulty design boilers. A brief but black spot on an otherwise fine companies history. Sadly, others will forever attempt to bring up this issue in order to denigrate the overall design concept, which has well stood the test of time since 1946 (initial Penn State University research in conjunction with Axeman Anderson), 1949 (Axeman Anderson begins sales) and 1976 (Eshland, now called AHS), and which is still arguably the most efficient and clean running coal boiler design ever to see production, with both Axeman Anderson and AHS still making them.

 
Pacowy
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Post by Pacowy » Fri. Aug. 11, 2017 4:55 pm

To synthesize the last few posts, let me try again. Puffbacks come from the volatiles released when fresh coal is added to a fire. They can happen with hand-firing or with the AA/AHS design of stoker. If it is "denigrating" to mention them AA must be denigrating its own product, because they talk about them in their manual. It's good if AHS fixed whatever was causing the rash of problems referenced previously. It's also good for the OP to get (accurate) comments, as requested, and that includes the susceptibility of the design to puffbacks. It's like an SUV being susceptible to rollovers - it doesn't mean you shouldn't buy an SUV, and if you did you likely won't experience a rollover, but if you're considering buying one you should know about it.

I like efficiency as much as anybody but I'd sure like to see a credible basis for Larry's claim about that. EFM and Keystoker have been around for a long time, too, and I don't know of any proof of one being meaningfully more efficient than the other. AFAIK what is well-settled is that stoker-firing in general is substantially more efficient than hand-firing.

Mike

 
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lsayre
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Post by lsayre » Fri. Aug. 11, 2017 5:42 pm

Pacowy wrote:I like efficiency as much as anybody but I'd sure like to see a credible basis for Larry's claim about that. EFM and Keystoker have been around for a long time, too, and I don't know of any proof of one being meaningfully more efficient than the other. AFAIK what is well-settled is that stoker-firing in general is substantially more efficient than hand-firing.

Mike
Here it is: The extensive and quite scientific/engineering oriented 1953 US Bureau Of Mines study of the efficiency of the Axeman Anderson AA130 Boiler, from the US Government archives, and also from forum member Yanche.

https://digital.library.unt.edu/ark:/67531/metadc38592/m2/1/high_res_d/metadc38592.pdf

Bureau of Mines Report 4936 Axeman-Andersen Anthratube Boiler

I didn't rehash reading it (which I have done a few times in the past) but from memory the efficiency is knocking on the door of 81%. And the research of this radically unique design was undertaken by Penn State University and Axeman Anderson beginning in 1946 specifically to save the coal fired home heating industry from the rapidly growing invasion of oil and natural gas alternatives, with the highest possible efficiency as the means by which to accomplish this.

Do similar extensive government efficiency studies exist for EFM's, Keystokers, etc?

 
Pacowy
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Post by Pacowy » Fri. Aug. 11, 2017 11:17 pm

Larry,

Thanks for the copy of the study, and to Yanche for his effort in making it available. With all due respect, I don't think the study supports the propositions for which you cite it, but it does highlight considerations that might be useful to the OP. For starters, while the study estimates the efficiency numbers, it makes no comparison that I can find to other coal units on the market, or to oil and gas units, tested under similar conditions. If you try to take the study's efficiency numbers out of context, an important thing to notice is the way the quality of coal has changed since 1953. The study uses coal with an H2O% under 3 and btu/lb As Received over 13k. Maybe that was common in 1953, but nowadays I think you're looking at more like 6% H2O and 12,250 btu/lb A.R. Plug those into the computations and you get an efficiency estimate of about 77.5%, close to the 75% AA seems to claim in its literature.

While those numbers are still pretty good, I don't think you can make much of a case that they are materially better than their coal-burning contemporaries. Automated coal stokers already had achieved substantial efficiency gains relative to hand firing. EFM boilers at that time had tube-tube heat exchangers with greater surface area than today's units (Highboy much greater). And even if you could make out a case that the AA design did improve efficiency by a few percent, I don't understand how that would be thought of as meaningful in preserving the competitiveness of coal heat vs. oil and gas. That battle was being waged on the basis of market demand for convenience, time savings, etc., and was not primarily cost-based. Thus, the study summary highlighted considerations related to the unit being "rugged, easy to maintain, and remarkably free from operating difficulties", as well as considerations related to cleanliness and ease of maintenance.

In a chat I once had with forum member whistlenut he cited those same types of factors - and not efficiency - as reasons why he used AA's for a substantial portion of his "fleet". Even if the actual efficiency differences are small, such attributes are important for some users.

Mike


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