Need Some Boiler Help...Choices

Highlander · Post by **Highlander** » Fri. May. 30, 2008 8:13 am

Highlander, I was curious as to how many sq ft you are heating with your Harmon?

I'm heating about 1600 sq ft of living space + 900 sq ft of basement. The heat from the basement helps warm the upper floors so I can't really say its a 2500 sq ft, probably more like the equivalent of 2000 sq ft.

Sting wrote:

The Harman is a Water Tube Boiler!

I did not know that -- guess I never looked close enough

Well Ill cross that one off my short list!

So whats your issue with the water tubes, you seem to have an opinion on everything, why make a comment like that and not elaborate on it.

huntabsarokee · Post by **huntabsarokee** » Fri. May. 30, 2008 8:24 am

BMAC

Who are Harmon's installers to get the warranty? The dealers? Both dealers I called don't install the boilers. They will deliver it to the house and that is about it. The 1 dealer did say after my plumber hooked it up they would for a feee come out and hook it up and make sure it is running correctly.

bmac · Post by **bmac** » Fri. May. 30, 2008 8:34 am

huntabsarokee,

No, most dealers don't do the install's, they contract with a local plumbers to do them. At least the two dealer's nearby do it that way.
Like I said, I'm not sure on this issue, and the member that brought this to my attention has been in the business for over 30 yrs., so I'm sure he's seen it all, more or less. Even he has a Harman in his own home, so I feel he isn't biased on the Harman's performance, or design in any fashion.
If it's an issue of just inspecting the installation to verify that the install was done correctly, prior to validating the warranty, then I wouldn't have a problem with that at all.

BTW- I have almost the exact same living conditions (spacewise) that Bill does.

Bob

bmac · Post by **bmac** » Fri. May. 30, 2008 11:02 am

The Harman is a Water Tube Boiler!

I did not know that -- guess I never looked close enough

Well Ill cross that one off my short list!

Sting,

In actuality the water tubes are a benefit I would think.......

Being that most water jackets usually encompass the burn chamber solidly in some form or fashion, having tubes running through the burn chamber as well, only seems to increase the surface area to be heated. Or it allows smaller segments of the water supply to be heated quicker, therefore heating the overall water volume quicker. Also, it's possible, that by doing this, it allows Harman to have a smaller water jacket above the burn chamber but still have the same given water volume in the boiler. Having the surface area of those tubes individually, as well as the smaller volume of water inside them, it would make sense that it would heat the water quicker maybe than just having a single volume of water above or around the burn chamber.

I admit it's speculation, but mechanically, from my view, it seems like it'd function better..........or should I say quicker maybe...?

Take care,
Bob

Post by **coaledsweat** » Fri. May. 30, 2008 12:48 pm

Water tube boilers are more efficient, fire tube boilers are less expensive as a general rule.

Sting · Post by **Sting** » Sat. May. 31, 2008 9:17 am

Both correct

but have you had to live with a water tube boiler?

you will quickly trade the minuscule indecency advantage for your labor saving

and yes that was firing coal in each! The fire tube boiler is still there - the water tube engine was torn out with glee a very long time ago!

And yes MR. HIGHLANDER - I do have an opinion -- Just like you -- Get over it!

If you want to know more ask - If not I won't fill the pages with what you may consider a waste of bandwidth!

Hollyfeld · Post by **Hollyfeld** » Sat. May. 31, 2008 9:44 am

Sting wrote:Both correct

but have you had to live with a water tube boiler?

you will quickly trade the minuscule indecency advantage for your labor saving

and yes that was firing coal in each! The fire tube boiler is still there - the water tube engine was torn out with glee a very long time ago!

Please explain, I would like to know more.

Post by **coaledsweat** » Sat. May. 31, 2008 9:45 am

Sting wrote:but have you had to live with a water tube boiler?

you will quickly trade the minuscule indecency advantage for your labor saving

No, as I stated they are more expensive, both to purchase and maintain. They do maintain a serious advantage in the correct applications, I don't believe a solid fuel appliance is one of them.

Hollyfeld · Post by **Hollyfeld** » Sat. May. 31, 2008 10:15 am

coaledsweat wrote:
Sting wrote:but have you had to live with a water tube boiler?

you will quickly trade the minuscule indecency advantage for your labor saving
No, as I stated they are more expensive, both to purchase and maintain. They do maintain a serious advantage in the correct applications, I don't believe a solid fuel appliance is one of them.

Please elaborate on why it costs more to maintain.

thanks

Post by **coaledsweat** » Sat. May. 31, 2008 12:09 pm

Hollyfeld wrote:Please elaborate on why it costs more to maintain.

You need to go inside to clean it.

Hollyfeld · Post by **Hollyfeld** » Sat. May. 31, 2008 6:07 pm

coaledsweat wrote:
Hollyfeld wrote:Please elaborate on why it costs more to maintain.
You need to go inside to clean it.

Thanks for the quick answer.

Doesn't seem like that would be much of a pain to do, but then again, I haven't done it...yet.

bmac · Post by **bmac** » Sat. May. 31, 2008 9:29 pm

If it was just tubes alone, then maybe it would be a problem, but it's tubes in connection with an existing water jacket already, and like I said before, mechanically, it's more efficient. One reason why you see cross tubes in many forms of boilers, including my oil boiler. It allows the water a shortcut across the burn chamber instead of having to circulate the long way around. It only makes sense to me that this would heat the water faster, and in effect, be more efficient.

Obviously, with the few tubes that showed in the photo that Bill posted, that wasn't all there was to the water capacity of the Harman. Those tubes alone only held a couple of gallons......maybe slightly more.
The advertised overall water capacity of the VF3000 is a "listed" 50 gallons..........those tubes are an added benefit allowing part of the water to navigate a shorter distance through the chamber grabbing more heat quicker.

My hesitation on buying the Harman was never based on it's design at all. It was the company's dealer base and "customer to dealer" policies.
Regarding a "fire tube" design, I've never had experience with them, so I can't comment. The only question that comes to my mind would be "if " they were more efficient, why wouldn't current manufacturer's be using them in current boiler technology, residentially speaking. Obviously price in design might be a detractor, or possibly marketable practicality, I don't know.

Bob

Yanche · Post by **Yanche** » Sat. May. 31, 2008 9:49 pm

Well, since we are talking about boiler design, the A-A anthratube and the AHS coalgun are unique because the combustion blower fan in in the boiler hot gas flue path. It forces, the combustions gases and the fly ash against the boiler water vessel, resulting in excellent heat transfer. The fly ash impingement has the benefit of cleaning the surface. The recovery rate of the boiler is exceptionally fast for a residential coal boiler.

bmac · Post by **bmac** » Sat. May. 31, 2008 10:05 pm

Yeah, the AHS coalgun is a great boiler.....gasification design is very efficient. Up around 90+% somewhere.

I was on the phone with them last year for a good long while. Right now they are probably around $8000. Back when I spoke with them, the boilers were running $7600-7700.....before gas & steel prices were going nuts.

Money-wise.....that's way outta my league.

Bob

bmac · Post by **bmac** » Wed. Jun. 18, 2008 11:31 am

Welp......

I was able to get on Steve's (scrapper-23jr) list for a refurb'd EFM DF520, and he was very honest and "upfront" about being "Iffy" on getting one.....very matter of factly "maybe"........

Well, I haven't been looking very hard since then, but I was still keeping "an ear to the ground", so to speak. This AM, Steve emailed and said that thing's looked pretty dismal as he lost one of his suppliers of used EFM's. In other words, "possible, but not very probable"....................

So, after checking with the local dealers I know of, another "whammy" came when I found that Keystoker is about 4 -5 mos. behind in delivery, and that's also "iffy". I got a Harman VF3000 coming if I want it for $4500, but the more I find out about Harman, and their dealer system/policies, the less I want to mess with them.

I can get the Keystoker KA-6 through one dealer tax free under the NYS "Capitol Improvement Tax Law", and I was told the same by other dealers, but, when I approached the Harman dealer with that, he stated, "yeah, if I install it you can, ....otherwise, you have to pay the tax !"..........sounds to me like a dealer trying to reinforce his existence.
When you got two or three that say no problem, and one that quotes another.....makes me suspicious....

Anyway, now, unless I can grab something quick, based on current conditions, I might be screwed........demand is going crazy.....

Bob