KA4 Project (Pic Heavy)

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StokerDon
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Stoker Coal Boiler: BairMatic BMC-500 with Van Wert VA400 Stoker, Gentleman Janitor GJ-671/EFM S-15 stoker, Van Wert VA-600
Hand Fed Coal Furnace: Harman SF3500
Coal Size/Type: Rice and Chestnut
Other Heating: Noth'in but COAL! Well, Maybe a little tiny bit of wood
Location: PA, Southern York County!

Post Fri. Jan. 27, 2017 8:47 pm

lzaharis wrote: His K-4 is only different in the fact that it is not a
dual fuel unit as far as I know and he has 35 gallons of water and
the AA model Pocono 3 grate wide stoker that I have I do believe.
Sorry, The only thing that is the same is that it is 3 grates. All of the other stoker parts and the boiler itself are bigger than a KAA-4. It's a very different animal.

-Don

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McGiever
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Joined: Sun. May. 02, 2010 11:26 pm
Stoker Coal Boiler: AXEMAN-ANDERSON 130 "1959"
Coal Size/Type: PEA / ANTHRACITE
Other Heating: Ground Source Heat Pump
Stove/Furnace Make: Hydro Heat /Mega Tek
Location: Junction of PA-OH-WV

Post Fri. Jan. 27, 2017 10:18 pm

Wrong, No Pocono Stoker ever went in a KA-4. :roll:
"AA" = Flat Grate and "A" = Inclined Grate

This is the exact KA-4 Stoker discussed throughout this entire thread:
This is what was said back on page 1
McGiever wrote:Hello Leon,

You do realize this is Not the same as your AA size stoker boiler, but instead is an older A size stoker boiler little brother to a KA6...no nylon plastic componets were ever used in any A size stokers...day and nite different. ;)

lzaharis wrote:I have a KAA-4-1 with the single squirrel cage blower purchased and brought home in October and I am very happy with it and I have no need for the secondary blower as my Intermatic 30 minute timer is set to run with 8 pins at Zero minutes and 9 pins at Fifteen minutes. I have 9 threads on the stokers pusher plate. The KAA-4-1 runs very well at these temperatures with no overshoots or high temperatures approaching a boiler blowoff.

My boiler temps are 120 low 150 high with a fifteen degree differential. I am burning rice coal in my boiler. I Am Very Happy with the controls and the boiler now that the Hydrostat controls have been replaced.

I will caution you to avoid digital controls for it as the factory supplied controls and I would not trust the chinese gauges supplied by them as they malfunctioned on me twice and I have replaced them with Honeywell mechanical controls specifically the Honeywell L8124L1011 horizontal triple aquastat and completely separate B+G Bulldog RB-122-E Low Water Cut Off wired as the primary control before the triple Aquastat to shut the boiler down in the event of a low water condition. The Second Hydrostat 3250 Plus turned off the LWCO function as I was testing the boiler on oil when I replaced the second unit and that killed the idea of using a third Hydrostat 3250 plus for me as well as an integral LWCO function in a triple aquastat.

I have a New Marsh instruments "MArshalltown Triple Gauge to watch over the temperatures and boiler pressure too.

I had the boiler rewired as Keystoker would not supply me with Honeywell replacement unit for the keystoker KAA-4-1 and I am glad I had it rewired as it is much safer to run now with the Honeywell controls "IN MY OPINION".

Qtown1835
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Posts: 223
Joined: Sat. Nov. 08, 2014 11:47 am
Stoker Coal Boiler: Keystoker '81 KA4 (online 1/16/17)
Coal Size/Type: Lehigh Rice
Other Heating: EFM SPK600
Location: Quakertown, PA

Post Mon. Jan. 30, 2017 10:43 am

Meanwhile...

Domestic hot was giving me fits last night for some reason. The DHW has been more than adequate since startup but last night the water was hot/cold. I have a sneaky suspicion that the mixing valve may have crud in it or something causing the cooler water temp. The boiler guage was reading 160* and the thermostat in the supply pipe was reading 150*. No recent heat calls. The water would run hot for 10-15sec then noticeably run cool. I was screwing around with the MV and I could feel the water get real hot on the supply then drop cold again. I ended up turning the TA up to 160/180* again thinking it had to do something with lower boiler temps. In any case I took a cool shower last night...

Fast forward to this morning, took a shower after I got home from the gym and the water is hot like it has been the last week or so. Maybe the messing around with the MV freed whatever crud was keeping the valve open? IDK.

One other thing I noticed was the boiler pressure was around 9# when the water dropped to about 140*. Once the water was back to 165* is was reading the normal 12-13# . As the high temp creeps toward 175-180* pressure is about 18#. does that sound normal?

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McGiever
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Stoker Coal Boiler: AXEMAN-ANDERSON 130 "1959"
Coal Size/Type: PEA / ANTHRACITE
Other Heating: Ground Source Heat Pump
Stove/Furnace Make: Hydro Heat /Mega Tek
Location: Junction of PA-OH-WV

Post Mon. Jan. 30, 2017 11:26 am

Qtown1835 wrote:

One other thing I noticed was the boiler pressure was around 9# when the water dropped to about 140*. Once the water was back to 165* is was reading the normal 12-13# . As the high temp creeps toward 175-180* pressure is about 18#. does that sound normal?
No, the purpose of the bladder tank is to hold pressure steady...ruptured bladder or a undersized tank will do what you describe.

Qtown1835
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Posts: 223
Joined: Sat. Nov. 08, 2014 11:47 am
Stoker Coal Boiler: Keystoker '81 KA4 (online 1/16/17)
Coal Size/Type: Lehigh Rice
Other Heating: EFM SPK600
Location: Quakertown, PA

Post Mon. Jan. 30, 2017 11:53 am

McGiever wrote:
Qtown1835 wrote:

One other thing I noticed was the boiler pressure was around 9# when the water dropped to about 140*. Once the water was back to 165* is was reading the normal 12-13# . As the high temp creeps toward 175-180* pressure is about 18#. does that sound normal?
No, the purpose of the bladder tank is to hold pressure steady...ruptured bladder or a undersized tank will do what you describe.
Hmm. The tank is a new 30#. I suppose a could use a 60# tank. Do you know of a way to troubleshoot to see if the tank size is too small?

**EDIT** Looked it up and I do believe it is too small. Crap. I don't know where I came up with the 30# tank? I need to order a 60#

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McGiever
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Stoker Coal Boiler: AXEMAN-ANDERSON 130 "1959"
Coal Size/Type: PEA / ANTHRACITE
Other Heating: Ground Source Heat Pump
Stove/Furnace Make: Hydro Heat /Mega Tek
Location: Junction of PA-OH-WV

Post Mon. Jan. 30, 2017 3:36 pm

:idea: You can have more than one tank and add them up to satisfy the requirement. :idea:

Don't spin off tank w/o relieving the pressure first. :crutch:
A service valve to isolate w/ a bleed off would make for a quick change out.

Qtown1835
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Posts: 223
Joined: Sat. Nov. 08, 2014 11:47 am
Stoker Coal Boiler: Keystoker '81 KA4 (online 1/16/17)
Coal Size/Type: Lehigh Rice
Other Heating: EFM SPK600
Location: Quakertown, PA

Post Mon. Jan. 30, 2017 3:52 pm

McGiever wrote::idea: You can have more than one tank and add them up to satisfy the requirement. :idea:

Don't spin off tank w/o relieving the pressure first. :crutch:
A service valve to isolate w/ a bleed off would make for a quick change out.
Hmm. I do have an old steel tank in the ceiling over top of the oil boiler. It is currently valved OFF. I suppose I could open that for additional "space".

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McGiever
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Stoker Coal Boiler: AXEMAN-ANDERSON 130 "1959"
Coal Size/Type: PEA / ANTHRACITE
Other Heating: Ground Source Heat Pump
Stove/Furnace Make: Hydro Heat /Mega Tek
Location: Junction of PA-OH-WV

Post Mon. Jan. 30, 2017 4:08 pm

I do not know much about those old steel tanks.
Just a guess...but me thinks old steel tank may not play well w/ a bladder tank. :?:

Best to get another opinion from a more knowledgeable person about that. :)

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Rob R.
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Location: Chazy, NY

Post Mon. Jan. 30, 2017 4:45 pm

It will work fine until it becomes water logged due to the air scoop scrubbing the air out of the system. Hard to say how long that will take though, go ahead and try it and see how it does.

The real fix will be an Extrol 90 tank. A floor mounted model would be my choice.

Qtown1835
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Posts: 223
Joined: Sat. Nov. 08, 2014 11:47 am
Stoker Coal Boiler: Keystoker '81 KA4 (online 1/16/17)
Coal Size/Type: Lehigh Rice
Other Heating: EFM SPK600
Location: Quakertown, PA

Post Mon. Jan. 30, 2017 4:57 pm

Rob R. wrote:It will work fine until it becomes water logged due to the air scoop scrubbing the air out of the system. Hard to say how long that will take though, go ahead and try it and see how it does.

The real fix will be an Extrol 90 tank. A floor mounted model would be my choice.
What if I were to close the hyvent off? Or would that be counter productive? I would still have the expansion ability, but would leave the air collection up to the steel tank.

lzaharis
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Stoker Coal Boiler: Keystoker KAA-4-1 dual fuel boiler
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Location: Ithaca, New York

Post Mon. Jan. 30, 2017 5:04 pm

NOPE, NOPE, NOPE, the steel tank will water log and the circulator will have no point of pressure change and then things go wacky=no heat.

Both steel and bladder type expansion tanks are sized based on the total system water volume in gallons.

A larger bladder type expansion tank or a second steel expansion tank in the ceileing will not hurt your system.

As Rob said a floor mounted tank would work and all you need to do is run a pex line from the bottom of the air scoop to the bladder tank and just bleed the system properly. I have a steel tank in the ceiling and I no longer have to bleed every inch of my baseboard :D , I hate my baseboard heat but it works.

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lsayre
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Stoker Coal Boiler: AHS S130 Coal Gun
Coal Size/Type: Blaschak Anthracite Pea
Other Heating: Resistance Boiler (13.5 KW), ComfortMax 75
Location: N/E Ohio, between Medina and Wadsworth

Post Mon. Jan. 30, 2017 6:18 pm

The next step up from an Extrol #30 is the #90. The #60 is just a #30 for 2 story houses.

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StokerDon
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Stoker Coal Boiler: BairMatic BMC-500 with Van Wert VA400 Stoker, Gentleman Janitor GJ-671/EFM S-15 stoker, Van Wert VA-600
Hand Fed Coal Furnace: Harman SF3500
Coal Size/Type: Rice and Chestnut
Other Heating: Noth'in but COAL! Well, Maybe a little tiny bit of wood
Location: PA, Southern York County!

Post Mon. Jan. 30, 2017 7:10 pm

lsayre wrote:The next step up from an Extrol #30 is the #90. The #60 is just a #30 for 2 story houses.
Agreed, your system needs more expansion volume. Try using your existing steel tank first. If that causes problems, or doesn't work, you will need something with more acceptance volume than the 30. The 30 and the 60 are listed as 2.5 gallons of acceptance volume. The next step up is the 90 at 11.3 gallons acceptance volume, that's a big jump. The 30V I believe is the floor mount model of the 60.

-Don

Qtown1835
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Posts: 223
Joined: Sat. Nov. 08, 2014 11:47 am
Stoker Coal Boiler: Keystoker '81 KA4 (online 1/16/17)
Coal Size/Type: Lehigh Rice
Other Heating: EFM SPK600
Location: Quakertown, PA

Post Tue. Jan. 31, 2017 8:27 am

Im confused a little bit. If my boiler net output is 100k, it says I should use a EX60? I suppose getting a larger one would not hurt (EX-90) but is it necessary?
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lsayre
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Stoker Coal Boiler: AHS S130 Coal Gun
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Other Heating: Resistance Boiler (13.5 KW), ComfortMax 75
Location: N/E Ohio, between Medina and Wadsworth

Post Tue. Jan. 31, 2017 8:56 am

Why not just tie in a second #30 in tandem with your existing #30. That would be way better than wasting the extra money on a #60 and replacing your #30 with it, seeing that the #60 won't change things much, if at all.

A second #30 will double your expansion volume, and cost less than a #60. A #60 has the same expansion volume as a #30, so what have you gained?

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