Where to Install Circulators

Stoker Coal Boilers automatically feed the coal and have controls and pumps just like any conventions boiler. They are intended to be used as a primary heat and often have domestic hot water coils as an added bonus. They can be set up independently or in dual sytem with your existing oil/gas boiler. They can accommodate both hot water base board or steam plumbing.
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windyhill4.2
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Stoker Coal Boiler: 1960 EFM520 installed in truck box
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Location: Jonestown,Pa.17038

Post Thu. Nov. 17, 2016 5:23 pm

jrv8984 wrote:I'm already having 700 ft of water line installed for our animals, digging an extra 90 ft from the house to the garage is nothing.

Chimney is already built in the garage, the PAP is going to be spray foamed into the trench I. The next couple of weeks.
Will you have any gasoline stored in the garage or gasoline powered equipment or vehicles ?
If so,you need to put the stoker on a pedestal so the fire is off the floor 16-18" minimum.
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jrv8984
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Post Fri. Dec. 02, 2016 11:42 am

Is this a detailed enough diagram?

Spoke to AHS. They said no less than a 20 GPM circulator at the boiler, but that I should aim for 26 GPM.
I can't find #'s to calculate the head loss for 1.25" PAP, actual internal diameter is 1.26". I've been using the values for 1.25" copper, but pex is slipperier than copper. Using copper for my numbers, and 26 GPM, I am coming up with a head loss of 22.7', for a round trip of 250 '

Any recommendations for a boiler circulator that does 26 GPM at 23' of head
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McGiever
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Post Fri. Dec. 02, 2016 12:05 pm

Looks like none of these Taco 00 series will:
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CoalisCoolxWarm
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Location: Western PA

Post Fri. Dec. 02, 2016 3:24 pm

jrv8984 wrote:Spoke to AHS. They said no less than a 20 GPM circulator at the boiler, but that I should aim for 26 GPM.
I can't find #'s to calculate the head loss for 1.25" PAP, actual internal diameter is 1.26". I've been using the values for 1.25" copper, but pex is slipperier than copper. Using copper for my numbers, and 26 GPM, I am coming up with a head loss of 22.7', for a round trip of 250 '

Any recommendations for a boiler circulator that does 26 GPM at 23' of head
Here's a link that might help with your calcs: http://contractingbusiness.com/service/how-measure-residential-hydronic-heating-system-btu
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CoalisCoolxWarm
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Location: Western PA

Post Fri. Dec. 02, 2016 3:51 pm

That's a bit of a monster pump you're looking for.

Are you SURE you need 26GPM??? That's a LOT of flow.

You also have circulators at each zone, so they can be subtracted from that pump head need.

250' is a lot of line, dead into each zone.

Why not create a primary loop between supply and return. Then you use closely spaced Tees for each zone. Each zone takes care of its own needs, your primary is taken care of by the boiler.

I'm looking to "correct" a situation just like yours. The supply and return lines CANNOT FLOW unless a zone is open, then only as much flow as a zone allows. I'm concerned your cold-start flow from the boiler is going to be REALLY cold and ALL of it must pass through a zone, BEFORE it can start providing any heat.

Think of your zone like a sink 200' away. Before you can get hot water, you have to flow all that water down the drain, through a smaller line than the supply.

If you make a primary loop, you can use a "pre-purge" to run the primary pump about a minute before the zone pump (delayed on Tstat call) kicks on, which will greatly reduce the cool down in the zone calling for heat. There are a number of ways to configure this.

Come to think of it, you might want to do something to keep all that primary loop from getting too cold when not flowing, else shock might be an issue (too cool return temp).

You could either run a remote Thermocouple to the inside-the-building (near the zones) and use that to feed into an aquastat, or simply add a timer to run your (new) primary loop and pump every...(15mins?) or so. Whatever the time, run it 5 mins every 20 or something that keeps your return line from getting too cold.

Are you running radiators in your zones? If so, you DEFINITELY do not want to run any more cold water through them than necessary when starting up a zone. Keep in mind that a 3/4" pipe is going to take...maybe 4 TIMES as long to circulate all that 1.25" water through it before it can even start to think about providing heat.

I could be off on some numbers, estimating, but would you consider it an efficient system if it take 5 minutes or longer to start heating a zone after it calls for heat? ...and begins by cooling down the room and radiators first? Any expansion noises could be increased due to a much wider temp swing.

Now...if you're running all the zones and the boiler ALL the time (think very cold day), no problem. All water is hot, full flow everywhere. But when you have intermittent calls for heat, as most systems do, it could go from "not so great" to "downright crappy" in a hurry.

Not trying to sound all doom and gloom. There may be a way to make it work for you. But small changes as I mentioned can solve a number of problems and avoid others- including your monster-pump issue ;)

Please think it through. Ask questions if you have them. There are always multiple ways to do things and lots of reasons to choose one over the other. Just be sure you know what you might be getting into. (including what is likely to be a monster-price to go with that pump...or TWO pumps)

Hope this is helpful!
Last edited by CoalisCoolxWarm on Fri. Dec. 02, 2016 4:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post Fri. Dec. 02, 2016 4:02 pm

BTW, if you use a primary loop design, the head for 250' of pipe is something like 10-15 ft, which the Taco 0011 will handle at 18-22 gpm, according to this calc from the earlier link I posted:

Pump Pressure in Feet of Head = Feet of Pipe x 1.5 x .04

Probably MORE like 22-25 gpm since the head is more likely to be 8-10ft because it won't be circulating through any radiators or such.

Hope this helps. Others may have more "precise" calcs, but I'm fairly sure this will be close.
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windyhill4.2
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Coal Size/Type: 404-nut, 520 rice ,anthracite for both
Location: Jonestown,Pa.17038

Post Fri. Dec. 02, 2016 4:12 pm

windyhill4.2 wrote:My 1 Taco 007 is pushing water thru almost 600' of 1" pex & that same loop runs thru 2 water to water plate heat exchangers,been doing this for over 8 yrs.
After reading all the technical info in this thread,i sure am glad my simple system works so well. :D
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jrv8984
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Post Fri. Dec. 02, 2016 4:38 pm

Any recommendations for quality PAP fittings? For 1.25".
How about for the reamer / sizer shape tool for 1.25" PAP

I was multitasking this morning and missed making a primary loop when I was drawing it .

So I was using the formula on Taco's pump curve paper to figure out the systems head. Should that formula not be used?

I had used the other formula and came up with 15' of head but figured that the equation from Taco would be more accurate?

I was planning on about 6" between tee's to the zones.
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Post Fri. Dec. 02, 2016 5:45 pm

What is the heat load of the house?

jrv8984
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Post Fri. Dec. 02, 2016 6:46 pm

It's around 170k give or take to the best of my ability to calculate it.

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Rob R.
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Post Fri. Dec. 02, 2016 6:49 pm

Well, why on earth do they want such a high flow rate through the boiler? Especially if you have a zoned system with cast iron rads.

lzaharis
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Post Fri. Dec. 02, 2016 7:57 pm

if I said it already I apologize but a heat study needs to be
put on the front burner.
If you use manual thermostats on the upright radiators
rather than a thermostat in those rooms to control
them you will save a huge amount of heat as they
will only let so much hot water enter and exit the
radiators.

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CoalisCoolxWarm
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Stoker Coal Boiler: Keystoker KA-6
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Coal Size/Type: Anthracite Buckwheat
Other Heating: Oil Boiler
Location: Western PA

Post Fri. Dec. 02, 2016 8:27 pm

lzaharis wrote:if I said it already I apologize but a heat study needs to be
put on the front burner.
If you use manual thermostats on the upright radiators
rather than a thermostat in those rooms to control
them you will save a huge amount of heat as they
will only let so much hot water enter and exit the
radiators.
I think thermostats in the room are the way to go. He is already planning for the circulators in each zone, so Tstats make good sense.
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CoalisCoolxWarm
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Joined: Wed. Jan. 19, 2011 11:41 am
Stoker Coal Boiler: Keystoker KA-6
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Coal Size/Type: Anthracite Buckwheat
Other Heating: Oil Boiler
Location: Western PA

Post Fri. Dec. 02, 2016 8:47 pm

jrv8984 wrote:Any recommendations for quality PAP fittings? For 1.25".
How about for the reamer / sizer shape tool for 1.25" PAP

I was multitasking this morning and missed making a primary loop when I was drawing it .

So I was using the formula on Taco's pump curve paper to figure out the systems head. Should that formula not be used?

I had used the other formula and came up with 15' of head but figured that the equation from Taco would be more accurate?

I was planning on about 6" between tee's to the zones.
"Closely spaced Tees" mean you have both supply and return for a zone connected to the primary loop with tees, within 4 pipe diameters of each other. The zone and the primary loops will self-balance, without backwards flow and be pretty smooth and effective.

Your drawing shows them coming back on different sections of the primary loop. For this type of system, they would be right next to each other (1.25" x 4 = inches from center to center of the tees).

I also put thermal traps on the return sections, though likely redundant when using Integrated Flow Check (IFC) pumps.

Be sure to include low drains in each zone return line, wish mine were lower- always traps a bit of water in the bottom. I used "boiler drains" because they can take the heat and have standard hose threads on the end, making it nice for draining and flushing. I suggest a male-male adapter that will greatly simplify flooding your zones and bleeding most of the air from it.

A good design tip is to use pump flanges with integrated valves. So many reasons this is smart money spent ;)

Here's my build/install thread. It shows my zones and you can see what I did and why, along with input from many of our sage members ;)

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Last edited by CoalisCoolxWarm on Sat. Dec. 03, 2016 11:28 am, edited 1 time in total.
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jrv8984
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Post Sat. Dec. 03, 2016 8:31 am

Somehow I missed that the supply and return from a zone are supposed to be the 4 pipe diameters from each other, I suppose it's because it seems counterintuitive to be returning cold water to the main loop before supplying the next zone.

Question, if I have all the hots for the 4 zones 6" apart, and then immediately continue with my cold returns 6" apart, and there's never anymore than 6" between any tee, would that work?

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