LL AA-220 Relocation

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StokerDon
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Post By: StokerDon » Wed. Feb. 27, 2019 7:00 pm

swyman wrote:
Wed. Feb. 27, 2019 4:50 am
What that means for me is lots of overtime which equals CHIMNEY!
Amen to that!!!

In my opinion, there is no way to have a serious coal central heating system without a chimney.

As far as what boiler; keep in mind that the AA or AHS 260 has a lot more output than the EFM 520. I think you would be in EFM 700 territory if you want to beat a 260.

Again, I don't think there is any problem with your current boiler. If you put a bigger stoker underneath it, you would have all the heat you need. But, that's a whole conversion thing that you might not want to get involved in.

Chimney first, then you can dream of what coal burner to get.

-Don

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swyman
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Post By: swyman » Thu. Feb. 28, 2019 2:37 am

hotblast1357 wrote:
Wed. Feb. 27, 2019 1:52 pm

Whee you are located, I feel your gonna travel for any brand, so might as go with the best deal.
I'm in Southeast MI, only 10 miles North of Toledo, OH and I like to travel!

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swyman
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Post By: swyman » Thu. Feb. 28, 2019 2:39 am

lsayre wrote:
Wed. Feb. 27, 2019 6:01 pm
I wasn't referring to the coal. I was referring to setting it up to run perfectly from the very onset. That is always a hunt and peck sort of thing.
Haha, you guys know I LOVE making adjustments!

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swyman
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Post By: swyman » Thu. Feb. 28, 2019 2:47 am

StokerDon wrote:
Wed. Feb. 27, 2019 7:00 pm

Chimney first, then you can dream of what coal burner to get.

-Don
That is the key, nothing can happen without it. Still not getting a good vibe that my boiler could do the whole job needed as I can't move more than 10lbs per hour. I could with a little tweaking but then there is also the fly ash issue. Lot of buildup on top of fire where the heat transitions into the fire tubes and also a lot of buildup under the fire tubes then through the flue pipe. I would assume if chimney produces a stronger draft then that would make it even worse. I'm very intrigued to see a Axeman design work and how it can separate fly ash before it exits the boiler.

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hotblast1357
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Post By: hotblast1357 » Thu. Feb. 28, 2019 4:34 am

Shane, don was taking about putting a different stoker under your boiler.

Like you say, the design of the boiler permits a lot of flyash build up anyways so, might as well get something better, unless a chimney cures all.

I would really like to know how we could measure the difference between a chimney and a power vent, if your vent will pull .04” of WC, what else can we measure, CFM it moves?

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swyman
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Post By: swyman » Thu. Feb. 28, 2019 7:41 am

hotblast1357 wrote:
Thu. Feb. 28, 2019 4:34 am
Shane, don was taking about putting a different stoker under your boiler.

Like you say, the design of the boiler permits a lot of flyash build up anyways so, might as well get something better, unless a chimney cures all.

I would really like to know how we could measure the difference between a chimney and a power vent, if your vent will pull .04” of WC, what else can we measure, CFM it moves?
I have thought about putting a different stoker in there but you nailed it, that giant table over top of the fire is nothing but a fly ash catcher then what does pass through the vertical heat tubes builds up on the bottom. Then what makes it through there ends up in the stove pipe, and what doesn't collect there plugs up the power vent! It is way overdue for a cleaning, I have just over a ton left in the bin so I may just ride it out as spring is in the horizon. I do have 3 ton of rice in stock and depending on weather I may just run a ton or two through it? As far as the power vent draft, it is capable of more than -.04, that is just where I have the baro set. But we did see the affects during the "bomb cyclone" that came through totally overpowered the fan. With a chimney I would have seen the opposite results. My boiler works well for what it is, just need more power during extreme times but I cannot do anything without a chimney. Once that's built, I'm coming to New York to steal your S260!

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hotblast1357
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Post By: hotblast1357 » Thu. Feb. 28, 2019 8:17 am

Haha good luck with that!!

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swyman
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Post By: swyman » Tue. Mar. 05, 2019 6:54 am

Where the heck did this cold come from? Came home last night to a 139 degree boiler and house was down to 67 (set at 73). Was 13 degrees outside with a nasty NW wind. Had to setup to run propane with the boiler. Recovery was quick and the boiler was at a happy 185 degrees this morning. I will do everything I can to upgrade boilers this off season, I don't want to burn propane. I checked the 500 gallon tank last week, was down to 40% from 60% at the start of the season. Another interesting fact for Larry is with running the 120K BTU propane burner pre-coil, my delta t is 5 degrees, normally 30 without propane burner. I have some HOT heat coming out of the registers to say the least!

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lsayre
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Stoker Coal Boiler: AHS S130 Coal Gun
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Location: N/E Ohio, between Medina and Wadsworth

Post By: lsayre » Tue. Mar. 05, 2019 7:24 am

swyman wrote:
Tue. Mar. 05, 2019 6:54 am
Another interesting fact for Larry is with running the 120K BTU propane burner pre-coil, my delta t is 5 degrees, normally 30 without propane burner.
You are re-heating the boiler water within the coil when you run your propane furnace.

We can use this to estimate your GPM flow through the coil though:

~100,000 BTUH output (propane furnace) = GPM x 25 degree Delta-T recovery x 500

GPM = ~8

And now we can determine the BTUH delivery of your boiler to the coil:

~BTUH = ~8 GPM x 30 degrees Delta-T x 500

~BTUH = 120,000

Combined, you have 120,000 + 100,000 = 220,000 output BTUH. If that is what is actually required to heat your house, then neither the propane furnace or the coal boiler is large enough by itself to perform the required task.

At 214,000 BTUH the EFM520 would be close to this when absolutely maxed out, and if the AA-260 (or AHS-260) is rated for output it (they) would be up to the task, otherwise it (they) would also come up a bit short of 220,000 BTUH.

And lastly it now appears that we can gauge the nominal "net" output BTUH capability of your AA-220 at only about 120,000 BTUH.
Last edited by lsayre on Tue. Mar. 05, 2019 7:43 am, edited 1 time in total.

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swyman
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Post By: swyman » Tue. Mar. 05, 2019 7:42 am

lsayre wrote:
Tue. Mar. 05, 2019 7:24 am
You are re-heating the boiler water within the coil when you run your propane furnace.

We can use this to estimate your GPM flow through the coil though:

~100,000 BTUH output (propane furnace) = GPM x 25 degree Delta-T recovery x 500

GPM = 8

And now we can determine the BTUH delivery of your boiler to the coil:

BTUH = 8 GPM x 30 degrees Delta-T x 500

BTUH = 120,000

Combined, you have 120,000 + 100,000 = 220,000 output BTUH. If that is what is actually required to heat your house, then neither the propane furnace or the coal boiler is large enough by itself to perform the required task.
I believe the 8 GPM is right on from your previous estimations so in cross reference is right on as usual! I remember when I only had the propane furnace, on these cold of days it would run continuous and I would lose temperature in the house. Would never go below 60 degrees but was not comforting to say the least. Also keep in mind that now I am not just heating the house, I have the barn and garage also. During the polar vortex I shut the barn fan off to keep delta to a minimum but I have a friend that has a son on our high school bass fishing team and they went to a tournament in South Carolina last weekend. Called me yesterday and needed a heated area to put the boat to thaw it out so I moved my truck outside the barn and put the boat in. It is one of those new fancy, high horsepower ones so I left the heater going out there. Was nice to see the boiler at temp this morning. I think a S260 should do the job I need, will use some coal on these days but still cheaper than propane.

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lsayre
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Location: N/E Ohio, between Medina and Wadsworth

Post By: lsayre » Tue. Mar. 05, 2019 7:47 am

swyman wrote:
Tue. Mar. 05, 2019 7:42 am
I remember when I only had the propane furnace, on these cold of days it would run continuous and I would lose temperature in the house. Would never go below 60 degrees but was not comforting to say the least. Also keep in mind that now I am not just heating the house, I have the barn and garage also.
Plus with your addition, your house is now larger and has a larger heat demand than back when you were getting only a 60 degree house out of your propane furnace. You must have a whopper load of heat loss. Did you ever make us aware that your 120,000 BTUH furnace was not adequate to keep your (pre-addition) house warm. If so, I must have missed that.

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swyman
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Post By: swyman » Tue. Mar. 05, 2019 8:58 am

lsayre wrote:
Tue. Mar. 05, 2019 7:47 am
Plus with your addition, your house is now larger and has a larger heat demand than back when you were getting only a 60 degree house out of your propane furnace. You must have a whopper load of heat loss. Did you ever make us aware that your 120,000 BTUH furnace was not adequate to keep your (pre-addition) house warm. If so, I must have missed that.
No I didn't include that information. It would only happen about 1 or 2 days per season but I firmly believe that my house heats easier with the addition. There is no more air infiltration (that I can feel) on my West wall. Before the addition I had so much air coming through my light switch I swear it would have blown out a candle, and wall surface temps would be in the 40's. One other thing I would like to do is add baseboard heat in that new room also, just to make it cozy warm. There are 3 supply runs in that room with vaulted (10') ceilings and just isn't very cozy. I thought I would get a lot of heat through the floor seeing it's 90 degrees in the basement ceiling but I just don't get the heat transfer. My buddy told me they make a special carpet to transfer heat from floor but I never looked into it, but it's to late now anyway. I have a ottoman in that room that's on wheels, when I move it I can feel warmth so I have to be getting a little something.

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swyman
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Post By: swyman » Thu. Mar. 07, 2019 11:24 am

Had the boys help me hump by 5 gallon pails, 2 ton of rice I had left over from last season. Was getting a little low so we'll see the difference now between that and buck. One thing in very noticable is about zero fines with this rice.

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swyman
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Post By: swyman » Fri. Mar. 08, 2019 6:32 am

Power vent strikes again......wife woke me up at 3:30 this morning to a beep going off in the basement (guess I shouldn't sleep with ear plugs in) so I knew exactly what it was but confused as to why....just switched to rice. CO was 71ppm so looking at barometer, door was wide open so that's good, checked over fire draft and was at .03 positive...checked fire, looked good.......back to barometer and there is was, the weighted nut came loose from the vibration of the power vent and wiggled over to open door. Checked my CO meters saved high limit and at one point was at 101ppm. Opened up the Bilco door and within a couple minutes everything was back to normal. No CO detectors going off up stairs but now I wish I had the type that show ppm like in the basement. Chimney can't get here soon enough!

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Post By: CoalisCoolxWarm » Wed. Mar. 13, 2019 11:09 am

swyman wrote:
Fri. Mar. 08, 2019 6:32 am
Power vent strikes again......wife woke me up at 3:30 this morning to a beep going off in the basement (guess I shouldn't sleep with ear plugs in) so I knew exactly what it was but confused as to why....just switched to rice. CO was 71ppm so looking at barometer, door was wide open so that's good, checked over fire draft and was at .03 positive...checked fire, looked good.......back to barometer and there is was, the weighted nut came loose from the vibration of the power vent and wiggled over to open door. Checked my CO meters saved high limit and at one point was at 101ppm. Opened up the Bilco door and within a couple minutes everything was back to normal. No CO detectors going off up stairs but now I wish I had the type that show ppm like in the basement. Chimney can't get here soon enough!
Wow, that is some scary stuff! Wife knew to wake you up, she's a keeper!

If that baro problem was your only issue, you could work around it, but it seems the benefits you should get from a chimney will solve a number of issues, especially consistency of draft.

Glad you guys are okay.

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