LL AA-220 Relocation

lzaharis
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Stoker Coal Boiler: Keystoker KAA-4-1 dual fuel boiler
Coal Size/Type: rice/buck mix
Other Heating: kerosene for dual fuel Keystoker/unused
Location: Ithaca, New York

Post By: lzaharis » Sun. Feb. 03, 2019 12:55 pm

Hello Swyman,

The thermal hand held gun would work but you would have to hash tag every leak with paint or heavy tape and you will not know if the leak is sealed until the repair work is done and the house is checked again.
The equipment to scan houses used by heating contractors uses a huge IR camera and all the places that are emitting heat are logged on the camera scanner and compact disc or thumb drive if it uses that method to store the data collected.
A good handheld non contact laser thermometer would work well too but the issue is whether the leak is coming from the inside or entering the home with a cold draft.
A door fan to create positive pressure used along with an IR camera is how most of the leak finding is done these days unless you have air gaps that can be seen with a flashlight beam from the outside. once you know where all the leaks are you can go back and fix them one at a time.


After you fix the leaks you may end up using a piece of PVC pipe with a pair of elbows and mosquito screen to add combustion air to the basement for the coal stoker and the propain furnace

One step at a time.

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swyman
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Stoker Coal Boiler: Leisure Line AA-220
Coal Size/Type: Lehigh Rice/Buck
Location: Blissfield, MI

Post By: swyman » Sun. Feb. 03, 2019 2:56 pm

lzaharis wrote:
Sun. Feb. 03, 2019 12:55 pm
Hello Swyman,



After you fix the leaks you may end up using a piece of PVC pipe with a pair of elbows and mosquito screen to add combustion air to the basement for the coal stoker and the propain furnace

One step at a time.
That would be awesome!

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swyman
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Stoker Coal Boiler: Leisure Line AA-220
Coal Size/Type: Lehigh Rice/Buck
Location: Blissfield, MI

Post By: swyman » Sun. Feb. 03, 2019 2:57 pm

StokerDon wrote:
Sun. Feb. 03, 2019 12:36 pm
So, what are we looking at? Is this while on idle, with no heat calls for 2+ hours? If so, it's time to tweak that idle setting.

-Don
Not 2 hours, maybe 10 minutes.....from your response I take it that it is normal.

CapeCoaler
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Stoker Coal Boiler: want AA130
Hand Fed Coal Stove: DS Machine BS#4, Harman MKII, Hitzer 503,...
Coal Size/Type: Pea/Nut/Stove
Location: Cape Cod, MA

Post By: CapeCoaler » Sun. Feb. 03, 2019 5:59 pm

The utilities in MA provide a free leak test...
Door Blower...
Check with your local utility to see what they provide at low or no cost...

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StokerDon
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Joined: Mon. Nov. 11, 2013 11:17 am
Stoker Coal Boiler: 1959Axeman Anderson130M, 1991Axeman Anderson130M, BairMatic BMC-500/Van Wert VA400 Stoker, down to 1Van Wert VA-600
Hand Fed Coal Furnace: Harman SF3500 reduced down to 3 grates connected to its own plenum
Coal Size/Type: Rice, Pea, Chestnut and whatever will fit through the door on the Harman
Other Heating: Noth'in but COAL! Well, Maybe a little tiny bit of wood
Location: PA, Southern York County!

Post By: StokerDon » Sun. Feb. 03, 2019 6:25 pm

swyman wrote:
Sun. Feb. 03, 2019 2:57 pm
Not 2 hours, maybe 10 minutes.....from your response I take it that it is normal.
I think we have a little communication breakdown here. I thought we were talking about idle fire and how to adjust it. I thought the pic was supposed to be an idle fire. You have to give the fire time to shrink, 10 minutes is not long enough to gauge and idle fire. At least 1 hour, 2 hours would be better.

-Don

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CoalisCoolxWarm
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Stoker Coal Boiler: Keystoker KA-6
Hand Fed Coal Furnace: old Sears rebuilt, bituminous- offline as of winter 2014
Coal Size/Type: Anthracite Buckwheat
Other Heating: Oil Boiler
Location: Western PA

Post By: CoalisCoolxWarm » Mon. Feb. 04, 2019 10:50 pm

Here's an article I post up from time to time about heat loss. It really opened my eyes when insulating and tightening up a building. Imagine a MILLION BTUs per day lost from a basement that didn't seem too bad :o

Usually I just post the excerpt, but you might be interested in the entire article, so I've added it, too.

About your plumbing...are you running a primary with secondary loops?
Attachments
Basement Heatloss_1MillionBTUsperDay.pdf
(6.37 MiB) Downloaded 20 times
Basement Heatloss_1MillionBTUsperDay_Excerpt.pdf
(174.51 KiB) Downloaded 15 times

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swyman
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Stoker Coal Boiler: Leisure Line AA-220
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Location: Blissfield, MI

Post By: swyman » Tue. Feb. 05, 2019 7:13 am

CoalisCoolxWarm wrote:
Mon. Feb. 04, 2019 10:50 pm
Here's an article I post up from time to time about heat loss. It really opened my eyes when insulating and tightening up a building. Imagine a MILLION BTUs per day lost from a basement that didn't seem too bad :o

Usually I just post the excerpt, but you might be interested in the entire article, so I've added it, too.

About your plumbing...are you running a primary with secondary loops?
I just have a supply and return manifold to and from boiler. My new basement is insulated and the old is not. I'll have to hit the walls with the IR gun and see the difference. Thanks for posting information
20181022_183122.jpg

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CoalisCoolxWarm
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Stoker Coal Boiler: Keystoker KA-6
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Coal Size/Type: Anthracite Buckwheat
Other Heating: Oil Boiler
Location: Western PA

Post By: CoalisCoolxWarm » Thu. Feb. 07, 2019 11:26 am

swyman wrote:
Tue. Feb. 05, 2019 7:13 am
I just have a supply and return manifold to and from boiler. My new basement is insulated and the old is not. I'll have to hit the walls with the IR gun and see the difference. Thanks for posting information 20181022_183122.jpg
So no actual primary loop?

I don't like those kinds of installs for a couple of reasons.

If no zones are calling for heat, what happens?

Boiler "feel satisfied" but all the water in the line can be cool/cold. How long are your runs?

But... if you connect the ends of your supply and return, then run constant circulation through your boiler until the whole loop is up to proper minimum low aquastat temp, your recovery should be better.

Right now the loop isn't really any reserve heat (remember the water volume discussions above) to buffer on a heat call.

Take a scenario like this. If your zones aren't calling for heat, the main lines to the boiler and back, and all the distribution zones get cold. But the boiler is happy as the little bit of water in its jacket is warm and not circulating.

Get a call for heat...cold water from zone dumps into main line, which isn't really up to temp and can't temper the water much with it's limited "standby BTUs" ...boiler gets slugged with double-cold water.

As the boiler tries to heat the water, cool water goes to zone. Cool water doesn't deliver BTUs. Big difference in BTU delivery of 140F water and 190F water in radiant heat (infloor is really good at this, but forget baseboard or modines).

Even if you can strip BTUs out of this cooler water, then the problem only gets worse until the boiler can heat a large volume of water hot enough to come close to efficient. Small lines make this worse.

Next item: Additional boiler.

IF you think you want to go this way, have you read up on parallel installations?

Fix that loop so it circulates, plum in a parallel boiler if you like, preserve your investment ;)

My opinion of what I interpret you have. So many pages, I don't remember all your configuration and details ;)

From previous discussion, here is a screenshot of my heatloss from a while back. Notice "Infiltration" losses. That is what I decided to tackle early, which you could likely benefit from doing a similar analysis and remediation.
Screenshot_Heatloss_2014.PNG
Here's a parallel vs series diagram:
2_boilers_01.gif

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StokerDon
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Posts: 4836
Joined: Mon. Nov. 11, 2013 11:17 am
Stoker Coal Boiler: 1959Axeman Anderson130M, 1991Axeman Anderson130M, BairMatic BMC-500/Van Wert VA400 Stoker, down to 1Van Wert VA-600
Hand Fed Coal Furnace: Harman SF3500 reduced down to 3 grates connected to its own plenum
Coal Size/Type: Rice, Pea, Chestnut and whatever will fit through the door on the Harman
Other Heating: Noth'in but COAL! Well, Maybe a little tiny bit of wood
Location: PA, Southern York County!

Post By: StokerDon » Thu. Feb. 07, 2019 7:40 pm

CoalisCoolxWarm wrote:
Thu. Feb. 07, 2019 11:26 am
So no actual primary loop?
This is a zoned, manifold system.
CoalisCoolxWarm wrote:
Thu. Feb. 07, 2019 11:26 am
I don't like those kinds of installs for a couple of reasons.

If no zones are calling for heat, what happens?
It sits there on idle, just like it was designed to do.
CoalisCoolxWarm wrote:
Thu. Feb. 07, 2019 11:26 am
But... if you connect the ends of your supply and return, then run constant circulation through your boiler until the whole loop is up to proper minimum low aquastat temp, your recovery should be better.
This is a coal stoker boiler, it is an "on demand" system. Constant circulation completely defeats the purpose of the "on demand" system by constantly pushing heat when it is not needed. There is a way to do what you are suggesting and make it work properly, but it is not as simple as just connecting the supply and return and it doesn't really make sense when using heat exchangers.
CoalisCoolxWarm wrote:
Thu. Feb. 07, 2019 11:26 am
Get a call for heat...cold water from zone dumps into main line, which isn't really up to temp and can't temper the water much with it's limited "standby BTUs" ...boiler gets slugged with double-cold water.
This is a low volume system with heat exchangers, so there is no big slug of coal water. It seems that Swyman has the house and garage heat covered pretty well with his new improvements.

The only issue left is his long run barn loop and the only problem there is it doesn't keep up when it's -10 and very windy. This is very likely a piping resistance problem in that long run.

-Don

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titleist1
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Hot Air Coal Stoker Stove: Harman Mag Stoker - one in basement, one in workshop
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Harman Mark III on standby for long power outages
Coal Size/Type: Rice/Anthracite; Nut/Anthracite
Location: Cecil County, MD

Post By: titleist1 » Fri. Feb. 08, 2019 7:18 am

Something like this could help with correcting air infiltration. I picked up an earlier generation of this thermal imager that attaches to my phone a couple years ago and it has been very useful. I've used it to seal up rim joist leaks here, profile the breaker box for loose connections, scan a few friends properties for insulation upgrades, play around for amusement....

https://www.flir.com/products/flir-one-gen-3/?mod ... gKtDfD_BwE

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swyman
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Stoker Coal Boiler: Leisure Line AA-220
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Location: Blissfield, MI

Post By: swyman » Fri. Feb. 08, 2019 7:40 am

titleist1 wrote:
Fri. Feb. 08, 2019 7:18 am
Something like this could help with correcting air infiltration. I picked up an earlier generation of this thermal imager that attaches to my phone a couple years ago and it has been very useful. I've used it to seal up rim joist leaks here, profile the breaker box for loose connections, scan a few friends properties for insulation upgrades, play around for amusement....

https://www.flir.com/products/flir-one-gen-3/?mod ... gKtDfD_BwE
Thanks T, I could not get the $10k+ thermal imaging camera to take home for a day but my boss bought our electricians a few of these smart phone ones and gave me one to try. Now that it is cold here again I will try it out and see how it works.

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swyman
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Stoker Coal Boiler: Leisure Line AA-220
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Location: Blissfield, MI

Post By: swyman » Fri. Feb. 08, 2019 7:46 am

It has been very warm here the last week and to be honest this morning is the first time I looked at the fire. Haven't been doing much and using much coal but back to 20* high for the day with 20-30mph winds. Boiler was running at desired temp, garage was 50 and house was very warm and the wife got her steamy hot on demand shower. I guess Stoker Don hit it on the head, simple system and is working well except when we get a polar vortex! The barn is my biggest loss and I need to figure out with the help of all you guys here. I will get some mason's over here after the heating season to see what a chimney will cost and set that as a priority before the start of next heating season. Still have a lot of coal left, might not burn up that 10 ton after all?

CapeCoaler
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Stoker Coal Boiler: want AA130
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Location: Cape Cod, MA

Post By: CapeCoaler » Fri. Feb. 08, 2019 9:00 am

Ask the brickies now while it is slow...
Not much outside work at the moment...
Everybody will be asking once it warms...

lzaharis
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Posts: 1586
Joined: Sun. Mar. 25, 2007 8:41 pm
Stoker Coal Boiler: Keystoker KAA-4-1 dual fuel boiler
Coal Size/Type: rice/buck mix
Other Heating: kerosene for dual fuel Keystoker/unused
Location: Ithaca, New York

Post By: lzaharis » Fri. Feb. 08, 2019 10:37 am

Hello Swyman,

Have you tried mixing the rice and buck together to burn it yet?
Running a 2/3 buckwheat; 1/3 rice mix for me has been a dream as my kaa-4 does really well with it and I am not making a lot of ash per day.

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swyman
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Stoker Coal Boiler: Leisure Line AA-220
Coal Size/Type: Lehigh Rice/Buck
Location: Blissfield, MI

Post By: swyman » Fri. Feb. 08, 2019 11:12 am

lzaharis wrote:
Fri. Feb. 08, 2019 10:37 am
Hello Swyman,

Have you tried mixing the rice and buck together to burn it yet?
Running a 2/3 buckwheat; 1/3 rice mix for me has been a dream as my kaa-4 does really well with it and I am not making a lot of ash per day.
No I haven't and don't feel like taking the time to do it. Seems like a lot of messing around and it's working good enough. I am going to spend the time on my coal vac this sunday. I haven't cleaned it since I started using it, gonna sweep the fly ash out of boiler and vent pipe also and that will about eat up that day!

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