LL AA-220 Relocation

Well I think I understand this chimney......now to start studying the install, "Classic Hydronics" came in the mail today so it's time to do some reading!

Finally getting started, should go fairly quick?

Cold weather is coming. Better Boogie!!!!

blrman07 wrote:Cold weather is coming. Better Boogie!!!!

Builder says should have structure up in 3 weeks.....providing the weather cooperates. I don't know what kind of effect this hurricane is going to have on us but I'm sure something will happen?

So while still waiting on basement to be dug, I am constantly going through my mind how I am going to set this system up. I just finished reading "Classic Hydronics" this morning and have picked up a few very valuable tips.....pump sizing and flow rates per size tubing were some eye openers from what I had with current setup. Also the importance of calculating heat loss/load which many of you have mentioned to me before. Still the damage is done since I already have my boiler BUT I can do the calculations and see where I'm at. One thing I think will be in my benefit is up size my line going into the furnace coil. I had originally piped that run inside the house with 1" copper. I think it would be in my best interest to run 1" copper on that whole run on it's own circulator sized accordingly. Right now I have 1" PEX with fittings going to the 1"copper which the PEX fittings will reduce my size to 3/4" correct? Wouldn't that take my flow rate from 8gpm to 4gpm? That would be a huge heat loss which might be why I needed to run my furnace with my boiler on the coldest days? I actually could go larger piping from my new boiler location to the furnace coil but thought I may just pipe it with the 1" copper since I will only need about 20' to keep cost down? What would you do?

For 20' of copper I would do it. Also make sure that your fan coil is piped correctly, the in/out orientation is important.

Some more thinking out loud....I plan on having 3 zones: First is 1" copper to furnace coil, second is 3/4" pex to garage, and third is 3/4" pex to barn. I was originally planning on having a separate circulator for each zone but have been doing a little reading in another thread about the Grundfos Alfha and how it can adjust itself to heat load. Would I benefit from just installing one of these circulators and having 3 zone valves? To all that have been following my journey you know that 3rd zone to that barn is 200' from the house. Plan on installing a Modine with fan but in thinking from another members comment of how I could thermostatically control that run would be install the circulator in that barn and cycle it from there since I don't have thermostat wire to the house. Wouldn't installing a zone valve out there and controlling it with a wall thermostat work?

Hello Swyman,

About the barn, Having the circulator in the barn will help push the water in
and out faster to your workshop out there.

All the zone valve does for you just direct water like a gate directing livestock
in and out of livestock pens and down a chute.

If your zone valve for the barn opens that is just one more place for the water to go and
return at whatever speed the water flows through the single circulator to the PEX to the barn and the
water returning to the boiler will be returning slowly after exiting due to the resistance created by
heat exchanger in the barn and the length of the PEX to the boiler sump.

As long as you do not have a slug of air in that line your new circulator in the barn will move as
much water as its rated for the size of PEX you have in the barn to the heat exchanger.

Here is my take on single circulators and zone valves. If your various zones are all of the same pipe dimension, pipe type, user(s) load, and length (or more properly friction head), this method will work well. If not, it will not likely be the case that it will work well.

Even if it is capable of ramping up the flow in response to zones opening, how is the circulator going to know how much of its GPM flow output is going into each individual zone. It doesn't! And that could lead to disastrous end results.

And for that matter, a single speed circulator also ramps up the GPM flow appreciably as additional zones open, simply due to the noticeable friction head drop that occurs when additional zones open. Therefore, in the end there is far less difference from a practical perspective in end result performance between a variable speed circulator and a single speed circulator than the salesman is likely going to tell you.

lsayre wrote:Here is my take on single circulators and zone valves. If your various zones are all of the same pipe dimension, pipe type, user(s) load, and length (or more properly friction head), this method will work well. If not, it will not likely be the case that it will work well.

How is the circulator going to know how much of its GPM flow output is going into each individual zone. It doesn't! And that could lead to disastrous end results.

All makes sense. I think I will stick with my original plan and use a circulator for each zone.

In a single circulator and zone valves application, the only real benefit that you can be assured of with a variable speed circulator is that it will draw less current when less zones are open. As for increasing/decreasing the flow, friction head changes with zones opening and closing already nicely cover that matter. Otherwise homes that for many decades have been heated comfortably with single speed circulators and zone valves would never have happened.

And in a multiple circulators (a circulator for each zone) application the variable speed circulator is reduced to being merely a single speed circulator.

Variable speed circulators were never designed for or intended for use in American hydronic systems. They heat far differently in much of the rest of the world, using systems where the flow through the users is never shut off, and there is where the real, noticeable, and well appreciated benefit of such a circulator lies.

lsayre wrote:In a single circulator and zone valves application, the only real benefit that you can be assured of with a variable speed circulator is that it will draw less current when less zones are open. As for increasing/decreasing the flow, friction head changes with zones opening and closing already nicely cover that matter. Otherwise homes that for many decades have been heated comfortably with single speed circulators and zone valves would never have happened.

And in a multiple circulators (a circulator for each zone) application the variable speed circulator is reduced to being merely a single speed circulator.

Variable speed circulators were never designed for or intended for use in American hydronic systems. They heat far differently in much of the rest of the world, using systems where the flow through the users is never shut off, and there is where the real, noticeable, and well appreciated benefit of such a circulator lies.

So I shouldn't waste my money on one of those self learning multi flow units? Just buy a correctly sized single speed?

Do you intend to run any of those circulators all the time? Like the one to the barn?

I agree with Larry on using a separate circulator for each zone. In your case, each zone has fairly high flow requirements and/or a lot of piping resistance to overcome.

swyman wrote:So I shouldn't waste my money on one of those self learning multi flow units? Just buy a correctly sized single speed?

What can it learn? It isn't monitoring the only thing that really matters, I,E., temperatures. What then is left for it to "learn"? Only pressure remains. They can and do maintain constant pressure. As system friction head decreases with the opening of more and more zone valves, they can speed up to restore pressure to a constant level. There is no learning required in this. And in the end it is not much different from the end users perspective than the far older method of simply letting friction head changes naturally increase or decrease the flow as required.

Billions of dollars are being spent on "artificial intelligence" and it has not yet been achieved at the level of the multi-million dollar super computer. How much of it can they jam into the electronics of a $175 circulator?

Rob R. wrote:Do you intend to run any of those circulators all the time? Like the one to the barn?

.

Before joining this group I would leave all the circulators running non stop but from the general consensus here that answer would be no? I was planning on cycling the 2 zones in the house with thermostat wire and installing circulator in barn and controlling that with wall thermostat along with fan on Modine. What's your opinion on continuously running a circulator?