LL AA-220 Relocation

 
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swyman
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Post by swyman » Wed. Oct. 31, 2018 7:22 am

hotblast1357 wrote:
Wed. Oct. 31, 2018 7:03 am
Better than nothing..

Does it seem like the radiant heat off the boiler is making its way upstairs? Or getting lost to the concrete in the basement?
In the old part of the house there were 2 window with a door in between and my buddy installed a register at floor of each window. The new addition we took the wall section out from window to window and I just relocated and used those heat runs into the new addition. I left the registers in and was going to cover them up when I tear out the carpet and put in hardwood in that room but now I think I will leave them there. You can feel the heat coming up through them so I think it is beneficial. I know I talked about adding a floor vent behind the couch which is almost directly over the boiler but will listen to coalpail members advice and not do it. So I am still getting heat venting up from basement and I like it! Oh, and my wife likes to hang clothes to dry so she loves the heat in that room, plus that would have to add moisture?


 
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hotblast1357
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Post by hotblast1357 » Wed. Oct. 31, 2018 7:51 am

The water has to go somewhere so ya I would say it adds a little.

 
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lsayre
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Post by lsayre » Wed. Oct. 31, 2018 8:59 am

Any attempt to calculate swyman's boiler BTUH via his observed Delta-T is dead in the water since there is no knowledge of his systems GPM flow.

So now we can't calculate BTUH via coal feed, or via Delta-T. What remaining options do we have?

 
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hotblast1357
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Post by hotblast1357 » Wed. Oct. 31, 2018 9:06 am

Actual weight put into hopper.

12,000 BTU’s per pound input.

 
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swyman
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Post by swyman » Wed. Oct. 31, 2018 9:06 am

lsayre wrote:
Wed. Oct. 31, 2018 8:59 am
Any attempt to calculate swyman's boiler BTUH via his observed Delta-T is dead in the water since there is no knowledge of his systems GPM flow.

So now we can't calculate BTUH via coal feed, or via Delta-T. What remaining options do we have?
Larry, what information do you need to calculate via delta-t? I can give you pump info, pipe size, number of 90*, length of run and time of heat call. Also would it help to install a clock so I can get time of boiler operation?

 
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hotblast1357
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Post by hotblast1357 » Wed. Oct. 31, 2018 9:13 am

I would add a clock or hour meter regardless. Good info to have.

 
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McGiever
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Post by McGiever » Wed. Oct. 31, 2018 9:26 am

Plumbing in a device called a "balancing valve" can allow for very precise calculation of flow rate by measuring pressures at 2 built in ports.
This "balancing valve" has adjustment to vary the flow to obtain desired flow results.
Last edited by McGiever on Wed. Oct. 31, 2018 9:46 am, edited 1 time in total.


 
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swyman
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Post by swyman » Wed. Oct. 31, 2018 9:43 am

McGiever wrote:
Wed. Oct. 31, 2018 9:26 am
Plumbing in a balancing valve can allow to calculate flow rate by measuring pressures at 2 ports.
Balancing valve has adjustment to vary the flow to obtain desired flow results.
Well then that's out....entire run is 1" copper. Don't want the headache of splicing into that.

 
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Post by lsayre » Wed. Oct. 31, 2018 9:57 am

swyman wrote:
Wed. Oct. 31, 2018 9:06 am
Larry, what information do you need to calculate via delta-t? I can give you pump info, pipe size, number of 90*, length of run and time of heat call. Also would it help to install a clock so I can get time of boiler operation?
What is the complete length of the loop which is delivering the 40 degree temperature drop (Delta-T)? The complete length in feet will be the sum of the nominal run length, plus all additional feet related to ups, downs, twists, bends, etc... (including the feet of back and forth travel through exchanger(s)). I will not need a count of or the nature of the bends for a first ballpark attempt. I will use accepted industry averages for "effective straight run length" based upon the nature of the users (which I will need to know, such as hot water baseboards, radiators, in floor radiant, water to air heat exchanger, etc...).

What is the ID of the majority of the pipe on this leg? What kind of pipe is it (I need this to ballpark the pipes inherent drag coefficient)? Are there any sections where flow along this leg is restricted by piping of lesser ID?

What circulator are you using? If it is a 3-speed, what speed do you have it set on?

Is this the loop with the water to air heat exchanger? Is there a pressure drop chart for this exchanger at various GPM flows? Do you know the ID of the exchanger pipe?

If this loops users are hot water baseboards or radiators I can probably give you a respectable "ballpark" for GPM flow. For in floor radiant heating and/or heat exchangers I may not be as lucky, but I can certainly try. Either way, it will only be an educated guess based upon a loosely calculated friction head for the 40 degree Delta-T loop, and a knowledge that for a given friction head a circulator delivers a given GPM of flow which is derived directly from its pump curve. As long as it is not a new-fangled variable speed circulator....

Is the Delta-T reliably 40 degrees, or might it be 41, 42, etc... degrees?

Absolutely no guarantees. With GPM and Delta-T a ballpark of BTUH can be attempted. But this will only be a ballpark for the loops BTUH heat demand, and not a reflection of your boilers BTUH capabilities. So in the end this mental exercise will not really help you determine your boilers output. It may help in assessing if your circulator is running within an efficient area along its pump curve though (wherein the most efficient flow always falls smack in the mid range of the friction head extremes of the curve).

 
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Post by lsayre » Thu. Nov. 01, 2018 10:43 pm

This (see attached) rather dysfunctional (as to layout, since I sort of jumped into it without knowing what to expect, and just kept going until it worked) yet highly functional and easy to use (I hope) spreadsheet I whipped up will assist us in determining the GPM flow through swyman's (or anyone else's) single longest boiler zone loop. The head pressure of the entire boiler system is generally found to be highest for the longest single zone loop, and it is generally assured that if a circulator can function properly within the environment of the multi-zone system for the case whereby only the single longest zone is open and circulating, then it will also handle additional added zones without question (since the systems friction head progressively falls as additional zones open to flow). The biggest trick for any system is going to be dialing in the correct friction multiplier value for the system. Hot water baseboards and conventional radiators generally call for this multiplier value to initially (as a first guess) be set to 1.5, and in floor radiant generally calls for this value to initially be set to 2, but beyond this the sky is the limit as to getting this multiplier value dead on. All user input is in blue only. All else is calculated. Where a valid spreadsheet offered friction head (spreadsheet column M) is seen on the vertical axis of a "pump curve" and where this simultaneously meets up with a valid spreadsheet offered GPM flow (spreadsheet column F) as seen on the horizontal axis of the pump curve, there lies your systems actual GPM flow value. A pumps GPM flow always resides somewhere along its pump curve, and will never deviate from it unless it is a variable speed type.

Sometimes it is easier to just time the flow of a single loop by feeling the pipe while running a stopwatch to calculate GPM flow (from the time of circulator start to first feel of a warm pipe at the return end of the loop), so below the main calculator is one that does this. And where all data matches up confidence of having discovered the zones true friction head is very high.
Friction Head And Flow of System.xlsx
.XLSX | 17.6KB | Friction Head And Flow of System.xlsx
Last edited by lsayre on Fri. Nov. 02, 2018 7:50 am, edited 1 time in total.

 
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swyman
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Post by swyman » Fri. Nov. 02, 2018 4:36 am

Holy cow that spread sheet is nice! Don't really understand most of it but with your guidance it will be just simply plugging in the numbers. I am sure the members that have been following this thread will greatly appreciate the time you took to make this useful tool as do I. I love this forum, have learned so many things from it! Maybe if I get a different boiler for the house someday, we can retro fit a 520 stoker into the base of this LL to heat my 5000sqft shop?

 
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Post by lsayre » Fri. Nov. 02, 2018 5:30 am

I almost forgot to mention the "Chart" page, where there is a graphical display of the data that you can match up with a pump curve chart to quickly see the intersect (where the zones GPM flow is located). The best feature of the whole thing. Don't miss it. The only part of the spreadsheet which was laid out properly.... Page (or sheet) changing buttons are found at the lower left.

 
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lsayre
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Post by lsayre » Fri. Nov. 02, 2018 6:22 am

Attached here is a modification of the above spreadsheet which permits graphical chart output more suited to very long distance zone systems (but which sort of diminishes the chart views suitability for more normal zone run lengths) . I recommend that everyone interested in this download both spreadsheets.

Edit: Replaced attachment with link.

Zone Loop Friction Head and Circulator GPM Calculator
Last edited by lsayre on Fri. Nov. 02, 2018 8:45 am, edited 3 times in total.

 
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Post by lsayre » Fri. Nov. 02, 2018 7:56 am

I just replaced my original spreadsheet with an improved version. If you previously downloaded it, please go back and do so again. But if you only want to retain one spreadsheet suitable for this purpose, the 2nd one (the one which is more suitable for longer zone lengths) should be the one you download. It covers all bases.

 
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Post by nepacoal » Wed. Nov. 07, 2018 7:24 am

swyman wrote:
Mon. Oct. 29, 2018 8:35 am
That makes sense and possibly something I could try. Right now I have a strap on aquastat that shuts the circulator off and turns the house furnace propane furnace on when the boiler reaches 150 degrees. If I switched it up like you advise, my blower would run continuous and pump would cycle so the boiler maintained set temp.....and I would not be burning propane!
Any updates on this. I'm betting if you rewired the aquastat using Zc Zr terminals you would all but eliminate propane use except on the coldest days of the year. You could even lower the strap on aquastat temp to 140 to add even more cushion before the propane turned on and turn it back up if needed during a brutal cold spell.


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