LL AA-220 Relocation

lsayre · Post by **lsayre** » Tue. Jan. 22, 2019 11:37 am

swyman wrote: ↑
Tue. Jan. 22, 2019 11:31 am
This is be done as soon as I get home from work...... I need to be proven wrong, just can't believe this is the heart of boiler not keeping up? On the other hand, Larry has been spot on with everything so far so getting ready to eat some crow and learn!

I edited my previous post. The essence of it is that if the monster circulator can't squeeze sufficient heat through your long stretch of underground 0.863" ID PEX, you will need to replace it with 1-1/4" ID PEX (if such a thing even exists).

Transmission of heat is the key here. If you can't transmit sufficient heat, it makes little to no difference how big the boiler is.

swyman · Post by **swyman** » Tue. Jan. 22, 2019 11:44 am

lsayre wrote: ↑
Tue. Jan. 22, 2019 11:30 am
Was the monster circulator installed back when you had the monster boiler? Perhaps the reason things worked back then was attributable to the circulator and not the boiler. I'm just trying to get you to re-focus. You already have the circulator. The cost of proving that it isn't the answer will be far less than going back to ground zero and starting over.

Yes it was installed.....I started with a 013 Taco and I was seeing 55 degree delta t and was losing boiler temp so I figured if I could pump faster I could try and lessen that delta and it went to about 45 degrees and really helped. Another thing that also changed is I went from natural draft on the fire to forced air. My brother in law bought their 1 Million BTU unit and his had the door fan for combustion and I could not believe how fast the fire would start and the intensity. I had him install 2 of those pumps on his also....heats his house (3000sqft) and farm shop (5000sqft).......and eats forests! I installed that door fan on mine and never had another issue. I will install that circulator tonight and we have some more cold weather coming in the next few days. I need to wire in my relay in the garage so that circulator will shut off when there is a call for heat in the house also. I think that will be as much as I can do with this system?

swyman · Post by **swyman** » Tue. Jan. 22, 2019 11:51 am

lsayre wrote: ↑
Tue. Jan. 22, 2019 11:37 am
I edited my previous post. The essence of it is that if the monster circulator can't squeeze sufficient heat through your long stretch of underground 0.863" ID PEX, you will need to replace it with 1-1/4" ID PEX (if such a thing even exists).

Transmission of heat is the key here. If you can't transmit sufficient heat, it makes little to no difference how big the boiler is.

I think I understand what you're saying....even though I am not using the modine with the fan, my delta t will be less on that loop which will improve my boiler performance? I also noticed that while under heavy load I could increase my feed a little so I need to remove the lock nuts on my feed adjustment screws. For some crazy reason or another my draft has been perfect through all this. Sorry got off a topic a little......

swyman · Post by **swyman** » Tue. Jan. 22, 2019 6:02 pm

Well the circulator change isn't happening tonight.....I don't remember doing it but the wires are cut about 1/2" before they go into the stator. I'll have to take it into work and disassemble to see if I can replace wires or solder extensions on them.

swyman · Post by **swyman** » Fri. Jan. 25, 2019 7:23 am

The cold has returned so this time I did some tweaking to see what happens. 10 degrees this morning with stiff winds so boiler will be working all day. Fires could stand to be pushed out farther on the grates so I removed the lock nuts this morning and adjusted the screws all the way in. This gives me just short of 1/4" more adjustment. Will see how much change it made when I get home this afternoon. Not sure if another inch of fire on the grates will make a big impact but it sure can't hurt? Still need to bring that high capacity circulator into work and have one of our electricians do surgery and add length to the motor leads.....been a busy and exhausting week with a bouncing work schedule this weekend....uggggh!

lsayre · Post by **lsayre** » Fri. Jan. 25, 2019 7:43 am

I'm not convinced that more fire power is the answer. Better distribution is the more likely answer. Scotscoaled told you this years ago.

swyman · Post by **swyman** » Fri. Jan. 25, 2019 10:16 am

lsayre wrote: ↑
Fri. Jan. 25, 2019 7:43 am
I'm not convinced that more fire power is the answer. Better distribution is the more likely answer. Scotscoaled told you this years ago.

What other ways can I better distribute other than adding a higher capacity circulator for the barn loop? Years ago Scotscoaled told me this when boiler was in the barn. I put an addition on my house so I could put the boiler in a basement with enough headroom to accommodate cleaning the vertical heat transfer tubes, have 3 seperate zones vs 1 and my boiler will still not keep up while the Outdoor wood boiler was able to keep up on a single loop? Is it just a matter of to small of a boiler now? I am close don't get me wrong, but still burning propane.

McGiever · Post by **McGiever** » Fri. Jan. 25, 2019 10:52 am

If the difference between burning a little propain sometimes and having a bigger boiler to burn Zero propain were $6000.00...which would the better choice?

We could do the same type analogy as above for the long term maintenance of a Power Vent against building a masonry chimney...oh the choices...

But Please, just one problem at a time, less we get too befuddled.

swyman · Post by **swyman** » Fri. Jan. 25, 2019 12:08 pm

McGiever wrote: ↑
Fri. Jan. 25, 2019 10:52 am
If the difference between burning a little propain sometimes and having a bigger boiler to burn Zero propain were $6000.00...which would the better choice?

We could do the same type analogy as above for the long term maintenance of a Power Vent against building a masonry chimney...oh the choices...

But Please, just one problem at a time, less we get too befuddled.

That's what I was getting at the other day, if I installed a different boiler in the basement I would have to have a chimney. From what I have read online would cost around $3500-5000. I believe I could find a 520 around the $3-3500 but if I did that I would probably install it in the barn as I could do the chimney myself out there which would cost around $1000 or a little cheaper (I would go straight up and ceilings are 12' so would only need about 8' of the good Stainless Duravent). That would eliminate the need for a modine out there so I would be heating the house and garage but there is the factor of only having 1" pex to service both heating needs but it did do the job in that past with enough boiler. I believe I could sell my current boiler for a couple thousand so that would even things out a little better. Just sucks thinking about all the work and $$ spent and results are still not perfect. I still have a lot of fight left in me but I want easy street as I get older. I feel like I'm aging 5 years every year and things are starting to ache from time to time. Just an overwhelming amount of "what if's" if I decided to do something drastic....Reality is I still sleep with no covers and our domestic hot water is ludicrous.

lsayre · Post by **lsayre** » Fri. Jan. 25, 2019 2:12 pm

No matter what boiler you choose, or how large it is, if you move it back to the barn you will still need to heat your house and garage with it. And the problem of the nigh on impossibility of squeezing sufficient BTU's through 0.863" PEX over such a long run will continue.

McGiever · Post by **McGiever** » Fri. Jan. 25, 2019 2:36 pm

lsayre wrote: ↑
Fri. Jan. 25, 2019 2:12 pm
No matter what boiler you choose, or how large it is, if you move it back to the barn you will still need to heat your house and garage with it. And the problem of the nigh on impossibility of squeezing sufficient BTU's through 0.863" PEX over such a long run will continue.

The easiest fix here is to separate the garage OFF the existing loop and plow in a added new loop for just the garage...sure beats a new boiler purchase and a relocation job...leave everything else as is, except, now build that chimney.

If the garage happens to already be separate loop then only need the chimney.

swyman · Post by **swyman** » Fri. Jan. 25, 2019 2:45 pm

lsayre wrote: ↑
Fri. Jan. 25, 2019 2:12 pm
impossibility of squeezing sufficient BTU's through 0.863" PEX over such a long run will continue.

But that's the point I have been trying to make, it worked with the wood boiler.....granted the reduced size pex limits me but I the boiler would always be sending 180-190 degree water to the house no matter the delta t. On the days to come with 0 temp highs with high winds my furnace fan would run nonstop. Could that have been because even though I was sending hot enough water from the boiler, there wasn't enough BTU's in that size line to satisfy the heat call? We will find out next wednesday, calling for -3 for a high with 15-25mph winds (hotblast type weather!). And thank you for sticking with me on this and not getting frustrated and telling me to F.O. I am trying to grasp this, I really am but can't figure out how more cannot be better.... boiler wise. I over build everything and everything always works as planned but this has been a long, tough road! Still beats cutting and splitting wood all winter/summer!

swyman · Post by **swyman** » Fri. Jan. 25, 2019 2:50 pm

McGiever wrote: ↑
Fri. Jan. 25, 2019 2:36 pm
The easiest fix here is to separate the garage OFF the existing loop and plow in a added new loop for just the garage...sure beats a new boiler purchase and a relocation job...leave everything else as is, except, now build that chimney.

If the garage happens to already be separate loop then only need the chimney.

I think you mean the barn, it has it's own loop that can easily be shut off. My neighbor has a little LL free standing stove and has told me he is going to sell it. Was thinking of buying it and putting it in the barn. That would allow me to eliminate circulating that loop. I still have 3 ton of rice sitting out under the lean too begging to be burned. That is just another possibility.

hotblast1357 · Post by **hotblast1357** » Fri. Jan. 25, 2019 4:49 pm

The big thing here.. put the big circulator on the barn loop BEFORE this cold snap comes, and see if the boiler can handle all the loads..

simple as that.

Go from there.

Olllotj · Post by **Olllotj** » Fri. Jan. 25, 2019 4:58 pm

Big circulator, reduces delta T of the Barn loop? Is that the idea?