Inverter Requirement to Run AHS S130 Coal Gun From Batteries

grumpy · Post by **grumpy** » Sun. Jul. 06, 2014 8:54 pm

I would get one of these....

http://www.generatorsales.com/order/KB900.asp?page=KB900

scalabro · Post by **scalabro** » Sun. Jul. 06, 2014 9:49 pm

tikigeorge wrote:Get a whole house propane generator and this will solve your issues:-) A easy fix! No worries about the sine wave issues too.

I agree.

I have an older 17 KW generac I got free from craigslist. It needed a fwd crankshaft oil seal, battery, GCU CB, and the transfer switch panel. The only thing I did not do myself is the transfer install and twin 120 gal propane tank install. It cost less than 2 grand all up.

This also ads significant marketability and value to any house.

grumpy · Post by **grumpy** » Sun. Jul. 06, 2014 9:55 pm

Gekko wrote:
tikigeorge wrote:Get a whole house propane generator and this will solve your issues:-) A easy fix! No worries about the sine wave issues too.
I agree.

I have an older 17 KW generac I got free from craigslist. It needed a fwd crankshaft oil seal, battery, GCU CB, and the transfer switch panel. The only thing I did not do myself is the transfer install and twin 120 gal propane tank install. It cost less than 2 grand all up.

This also ads significant marketability and value to any house.

I could not disagree more....

coalnewbie · Post by **coalnewbie** » Mon. Jul. 07, 2014 4:43 am

So my friends husband is a cardiac case and she decided that power can't go down in the winter. After installing that 17kw genny things got interesting.

The Friday 30 minute run costs propane, so she could not keep the 100 gall cylinder full as the company would not came for a minor fill up. In an ice storm she needed filling every three days and the only reason they did that service for her was his medical condition. She was using 30+ gall a day! She admits the idea is a fail. The whole idea is useless but some realty sites do think it adds value to a home. You can't fix stupid. Candles and a coal fire wins hands down. You just don't need this stuff.

Post by **Rob R.** » Mon. Jul. 07, 2014 6:58 am

100 gallon tank for a 17 kW genny? Stupid indeed. All they had to do was crack open the Generac manual and read the page about tank sizing.

scalabro · Post by **scalabro** » Mon. Jul. 07, 2014 7:45 am

Tough crowd!

Larry.....will you have the ability to automatically charge the batteries and transfer over to the power supply seamlessly?

McGiever · Post by **McGiever** » Mon. Jul. 07, 2014 9:22 am

lsayre wrote:
Rob R. wrote:So what kind of battery bank is needed to meet that demand?
A battery bank that is huge! Assuming that as a rule you only ever want to discharge a deep cycle battery bank to 50% of full charge, and using a midrange one day demand for the coldest day of the year of 8,000 Watts required (8 KWH), and assuming a 24V inverter I get:

8,000 Watts / 0.5 (for 50% discharge) = 16,000 Watts worth of batteries

16,000 Watts / 24 Volts = 667 amps worth of batteries. Multiply times 1.1 for the typical 90% inverter efficiency and you get 734 amps.

3 parallel wired banks of 245 amp rated 6 volt deep cycle batteries, each bank leg with 4 batteries (since 6V x 4 = 24V) would do it. The 3 banks in parallel would deliver the required 734 amps (3 x 245 = 735 amps). 12 batteries total. For average winter days this should provide up to 4 full days of boiler operation on batteries alone, but on the coldest single day in the past 10 years it would only (perhaps) provide 1 full day of heat.

The first battery seen on this website would come close. http://www.altestore.com/store/Deep-Cycle-Batteri ... Acid/c435/
12 x $200 = $2,400 for the batteries.

I think you are interchanging Amps w/ Amp hours (Ah)...they are apples and oranges, like Watts and Watt hours (Wh). Perhaps your math is all good, just labeled incorrectly.

SMITTY · Post by **SMITTY** » Mon. Jul. 07, 2014 10:40 am

coalnewbie wrote:
........... So you would have to have 55 galls on hand when the SHTF. You can't store 55 galls as it will degenerate. ........

As long as the bungs are shut tight, you can store fuel up to a year this way. Just make sure it's 93 or 94 octane ... because after a year it will be about 80. And make DAMN SURE that barrel is structurally sound. It will swell like a bastard on a hot summer day with some serious pressure inside.

If I can do this with crap MA fuel, anyone can.

scalabro · Post by **scalabro** » Mon. Jul. 07, 2014 11:41 am

Or if you really are a SHTF type, buy 55g of 100 or 87 octane AVGAS. It's 100 % old school leaded gasoline, no ethanol. Locked up tight and stored in an area where the temp swings are kept to a minimum it will last years. Plus there is more BTU per gallon because of the lack of alcohol. Expensive, but some SHTF guys are that way!

I run my power equip on it in the fall before storage and never have had a "stale gas" issue in the spring. Works excellent for marine engine storage as well. Just don't run it on any mill with an O2 sensor

Think of how long little recip engine airplanes sit outside for months at a clip yet still start up and run fine.

Most small bug smasher type airfields will sell it to you if put in a regulation gas can.

lsayre · Post by **lsayre** » Mon. Jul. 07, 2014 12:09 pm

McGiever wrote:I think you are interchanging Amps w/ Amp hours (Ah)...they are apples and oranges, like Watts and Watt hours (Wh). Perhaps your math is all good, just labeled incorrectly.

Technically I should have specified the Amp hours rating for 20 hours (the closest you can get to 24, and a bit more stringent than 24), but everything is otherwise correct.

There are many amp hour ratings for batteries. 20 hours are assumed (implied) in nearly all cases that I'm aware of that are of relevance here, since we are talking of demand denominated in days.

scalabro · Post by **scalabro** » Mon. Jul. 07, 2014 1:16 pm

Don't forget Larry that for any AH rating with a lead acid battery, you will only get about 85% of its rating in a fully charged state, during real world ops.... ie 2.2 volts per cell open condition. So what ever you do, add another 15-20% AH larger batts.

I've got a friend that powers his cabin on a bank of old 24v Ni Cad aircraft batteries he scrounged over the years at work. It works ok. I think he has 20 or so 44AH 24v batts in parallel.

coalnewbie · Post by **coalnewbie** » Mon. Jul. 07, 2014 2:50 pm

100 gallon tank for a 17 kW genny? Stupid indeed. All they had to do was crack open the Generac manual and read the page about tank sizing.

Whether it's 100 or 10,000 gall it's still $150-200 a day to operate, plus exercising expenses. If you want it that bad then fine. Then it's how long you want prepared to be down for. 1 hour or one month. SHTF times are unknown. A fools errand. Blessed are the peacemakers.... Security is an illusion. All my Lister cs6/1 stuff is being sold off right now. They will burn just about anything and my HO tank will keep them running for a long time... One guy is coming up from Georgia to look and intends to run them on peanut oil (Rudolph Diesels original fuel)... He expects to get one million hours between overhauls. No electronics, no over crank messages etc.

It's still an illusion.... candles and a coal fire.

lsayre · Post by **lsayre** » Mon. Jul. 07, 2014 3:02 pm

scalabro wrote:Don't forget Larry that for any AH rating with a lead acid battery, you will only get about 85% of its rating in a fully charged state, during real world ops.... ie 2.2 volts per cell open condition. So what ever you do, add another 15-20% AH larger batts.

I've got a friend that powers his cabin on a bank of old 24v Ni Cad aircraft batteries he scrounged over the years at work. It works ok. I think he has 20 or so 44AH 24v batts in parallel.

Ni-Cad's are expensive and not many are available.

Common batteries (Lead-Acid, Gel Cell, and AGM) only last around 7 years (give or take).

Then there are Thomas Edison's Nickel-Iron batteries, which will easily last 30 years or well more, and can routinely be discharged to 70-80% and can occasionally be completely discharged without any apparent harm to the battery, but they only deliver 1.2 volts. Apparently very safe vs. Lead-Acid. Virtually non-existent now, sans for a single manufacturer in China. Mucho expensive due to this single source. Edison thought the world had gone insane when it rejected his Nickel-Iron battery invention in favor of Lead-Acid. Nickel-Iron would be the dream battery of choice for the Solar crowd if they were affordable. Sufficient of them to power my house would cost me about $74,000 to do it marginally and up to $111,000 if I was to do it completely right. Trust me, this is not an option for me.

scalabro · Post by **scalabro** » Mon. Jul. 07, 2014 4:51 pm

coalnewbie wrote:
100 gallon tank for a 17 kW genny? Stupid indeed. All they had to do was crack open the Generac manual and read the page about tank sizing.
Whether it's 100 or 10,000 gall it's still $150-200 a day to operate, plus exercising expenses. If you want it that bad then fine. Then it's how long you want prepared to be down for. 1 hour or one month. SHTF times are unknown. A fools errand. Blessed are the peacemakers.... Security is an illusion. All my Lister cs6/1 stuff is being sold off right now. They will burn just about anything and my HO tank will keep them running for a long time... One guy is coming up from Georgia to look and intends to run them on peanut oil (Rudolph Diesels original fuel)... He expects to get one million hours between overhauls. No electronics, no over crank messages etc.

It's still an illusion.... candles and a coal fire.

Nah....my 192 gallons will go a long time. Why you ask? Simply because all I will do during a power outage is run my well pump as necessary to top off the water tank, run my hot water heater every few days and maybe few lights at night. I do have some jet fuel powered lamps. I figure if the SHTF for real (90days), I could make that propane last months by turning it on only when needed in the winter and really long in spring-summer-fall.

But you guys are right, nobody wants a 2500 sqft house on three acres, in a semi rural area with a whole house generator, that can be armed 24/7 for your peace of mind. And yeah all else being equal I'd want the house with no genset because they definitely are a waste of money.

What was I thinking...

blrman07 · Post by **blrman07** » Mon. Jul. 07, 2014 6:34 pm

No generator for me. I bought a 400 watt invertor to take 12 volt DC from a car battery to 110 volt AC. My TV uses less than 85 watts per hour, add in a 60 watt lamp, add in some other items like her nebulizer she has to use three times a day for her asthma treatment and we have a usage around 5 amp hours as needed. One car battery would do us for a week before we had to put it back in the car and recharge it. We can cook on our propane stove if needed or if it's in the winter we can cook right on the VC 2310 stove! I have a coal fired water heater in the basement tied into the OB so we can fire the coal fired water heater up and we have all the hot water we want. If we really wanted to rough it we have a couple of kerosene lanterns but I prefer not to use them unless were camping outside. The fumes bother my wife because of her asthma.

Power outage???? No Problem

Need to go off grid???? No problem

Rev. Larry
New Beginning Church
Ashland Pa.