LL Boiler - Questions About Dual Fuel Ect.

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beatle78
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Post Wed. Mar. 09, 2011 10:18 am

Hi Matt/Dave,

OK, you're new boiler has me rethinking my home heating configuration. I just have some clarification questions for you.

OK, I'm on your website and it look like the 110K boiler uses an Axeman WL oil boiler. Is that still a tube boiler?

Is the switchover from coal to oil automatic? If I'm away and I leave too much air in the hopper will the oil kick in? That would be AWESOME!

Thanks!
Jeremy

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beatle78
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Post Wed. Mar. 09, 2011 11:11 am

I think I found my answer.

LL Boiler

10 minute conversion from coal to oil.

OK so my question is, how can we make a design that allows for auto failover from coal to oil? Even if not ideal meaning that to ensure maximum efficiency, install insulation as soon as possible after failure from coal to oil or vise versa.

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Yanche
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Post Wed. Mar. 09, 2011 12:12 pm

Use your existing non-coal boiler, oil in your case as your backup. Pipe the two boilers together in a primary secondary piping system. Then switch over can be a toggle switch or with some extra logic automatic fail safe. Search for primary secondary piping. Lots of discussion and opinions on this site.

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beatle78
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Post Wed. Mar. 09, 2011 2:38 pm

Yanche wrote:Use your existing non-coal boiler, oil in your case as your backup. Pipe the two boilers together in a primary secondary piping system. Then switch over can be a toggle switch or with some extra logic automatic fail safe. Search for primary secondary piping. Lots of discussion and opinions on this site.
Thanks Yanche. I already have both oil & coal boiler setup in primary/secondary loop. My wife would like a coal or wood stove put back into one of the two flu's. I was contemplating an oil/coal combo unit like the LL and that would free up the the other flu for another stove.

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Rob R.
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Post Wed. Mar. 09, 2011 3:00 pm

You could always powervent the oil boiler.

kstills
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Post Wed. Mar. 09, 2011 3:12 pm

markviii wrote:You could always powervent the oil boiler.
You wouldn't own a Lincoln Markviii by any chance, would you?

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Rob R.
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Post Wed. Mar. 09, 2011 3:27 pm

You wouldn't own a Lincoln Markviii by any chance, would you?
Check your private messages.

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beatle78
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Post Wed. Mar. 09, 2011 4:15 pm

markviii wrote:You could always powervent the oil boiler.
I did think of that. What we come down to now is lack of space for it all.

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Matthaus
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Post Wed. Mar. 09, 2011 9:48 pm

beatle78 wrote:snip... OK so my question is, how can we make a design that allows for auto failover from coal to oil? Even if not ideal meaning that to ensure maximum efficiency, install insulation as soon as possible after failure from coal to oil or vise versa.
Realistically failures are not really an issue, if one does occur unless you are out of town, the dual fuel unit can be switched over in plenty of time to prevent any real issue such as freezing pipes.

We are still working on a unit that can be set up to automatically switch over, but the cost is going to be higher than this unit! :)

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AA130FIREMAN
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Post Wed. Mar. 09, 2011 10:16 pm

Matthaus wrote:the dual fuel unit can be switched over in plenty of time to prevent any real issue such as freezing pipes.
I have pipes in the attic that are insulated and use an aquastat with line voltage directly to the circulator pump if an outfire would occur and the temperature is to low that the triple aquastat would not allow the pump to run. Just as long as met-ed supplies me with the power to make the wheels turn.

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beatle78
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Post Thu. Mar. 10, 2011 9:10 am

Matthaus wrote:
beatle78 wrote:snip... OK so my question is, how can we make a design that allows for auto failover from coal to oil? Even if not ideal meaning that to ensure maximum efficiency, install insulation as soon as possible after failure from coal to oil or vise versa.
Realistically failures are not really an issue, if one does occur unless you are out of town, the dual fuel unit can be switched over in plenty of time to prevent any real issue such as freezing pipes.

We are still working on a unit that can be set up to automatically switch over, but the cost is going to be higher than this unit! :)
Ok, just to be clear, failover did not mean to imply that the coal failed, but that the operator failed..... to feed the stove :oops: I suppose you are right, if I was to go out of town, I would just switch over to oil. But if my wife is home & her forgetful husband didn't feed the stove & the house is cold, she will not be happy if she had to do the manual switchover..... just sayin' I've been known to make my fair share of mistakes :oops:

This boiler seems to negate some of the concerns with efficiency from other dual fuel stoker boilers since it uses a boiler originally design for oil.

Matt, Do tell about the auto failover! Any details that you can share at this point? :D pleeeEEEeeease!

kstills
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Post Thu. Mar. 10, 2011 9:26 am

Matthaus wrote:
beatle78 wrote:snip... OK so my question is, how can we make a design that allows for auto failover from coal to oil? Even if not ideal meaning that to ensure maximum efficiency, install insulation as soon as possible after failure from coal to oil or vise versa.
Realistically failures are not really an issue, if one does occur unless you are out of town, the dual fuel unit can be switched over in plenty of time to prevent any real issue such as freezing pipes.

We are still working on a unit that can be set up to automatically switch over, but the cost is going to be higher than this unit! :)
How much higher, as a guess?

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Post Thu. Mar. 10, 2011 9:56 am

Remember guys, you might have a boiler online anyway, or if it is a brand new installation, why not consider the base LL boiler and have a separate oil or gas boiler?! You could buy an oil or gas boiler new or used for short money and not even have to think about the changeover of fuel types in an emergency. I know everyone wants this to all be in a sweet gift wrapped little package, but that has a price, one that would be far greater than a separate boiler. In the highly unlikely event that a coal unit would fail, having a plan 'B' is admirable, but understand that I have 3 260's running for over 35 years without any oil or gas backup (another coal boiler sits as a reserve) and people live in apts that require heat and hot water 24/7/365.

One other thought, in wiring your controls, we ALWAYS bypass the circulator functions of a 8124 or whatever, and wire the pumps or zone valves to open or start on demand through a Taco controller, regardless or the temp of the boiler. If you lose fire for any reason, you still have circulation, and moving water will not freeze. This is not new, we have done it this way for 40 years. I know it gets just as cold where you live, and copper snaps in a heartbeat if it freezes there also.....just saves the 'emergency nature' of an outfire when it's 10 degrees out.

There are other ways to make your dollar go further, and yes, Dave and Matt can engineer an auto changeover system for fuels, but it is not necessary IMO. It could double the price, and I see no reason for adding the complexity. KISS philosophy works every time. This is not rocket science. :idea: :!:

kstills
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Post Thu. Mar. 10, 2011 10:31 am

whistlenut wrote:Remember guys, you might have a boiler online anyway, snip :!:
Hmm...you know, I've been talking about pulling the old boiler out... but this here makes a lot of sense. It still works, and as a backup......hmmm....

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Rob R.
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Post Thu. Mar. 10, 2011 10:48 am

If you have a functional oil boiler, I would just use that as your backup heat source. It is nice to have one boiler carry the load while the other is being serviced. It is also possible to have the oil unit automatically come online if the coal boiler drops below a certain temperature.

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