Dual Boiler Plumbing and Wiring.

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jaimz23
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Posts: 130
Joined: Sun. Jan. 24, 2010 11:35 am
Hand Fed Coal Boiler: Harman Trident SF-260
Stove/Furnace Make: Burnham Boiler/Harman Trident
Stove/Furnace Model: V-13A/SF-260

Post Tue. Aug. 10, 2010 6:34 pm

Hello,

I am about to connect my new Harman Trident sf-260 to my existing Burnam boiler setup. Now, the Trident has a connection diagram in the manual, but today my friend had some good questions and I was stumped to answer so I come to you all here for the answers. My house is very old (late 1800's) my existing oil boiler is only one zone and 1 Grundfos circulator pump for that single zone.

In the connection diagram, it shows that I will need to get another circulator pump to Tee in after the existing one in the return line that will be connected to the Trident's Aquastat. I understand all that, but if I want to run the oil boiler at say 60 degrees and have it come on if the coal should go out, how can I accomplish this with the setup they have in the Trident Manual??

I am very confused. Do I buy another circulator pump (for 3 total, one I already have, one in between the 2 boilers, and a third connected to another thermostat) and get another thermostat? How would I connect all of this? Is the diagram in the manual for completely bypassing the oil boiler electronically and running only the coal?? Is there something I am missing or other parts I need to purchase to accomplish this?? Does anyone have a setup like this with detailed instructions on how to connect all of this?

P.S. The Trident Sf-260 manual is available on their website for reference if you don't know what the diagram looks like.

Please Help...My head hurts.

Thanks

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Sting
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Posts: 2966
Joined: Mon. Feb. 25, 2008 4:24 pm
Other Heating: OBSO Lennox Pulse "Air Scorcher" burning NG
Location: Lower Fox Valley = Wisconsin

Post Tue. Aug. 10, 2010 8:11 pm

What have you done so far?
What do you think you need to do?
Have you used the search tool for:
Series boiler
Primary secondary piping
Two boilers
control second boiler

There is lots of information here

maybe you should simply start with some light reading on the subject

You are going to have more questions then answers very soon - maybe already. Here is the best advice I can give you - Buy - rent - or borrow these books - Sit down and READ them and then lets chat. This is likely the best 80 bucks you will ever spend on your hobby!
http://www.heatinghelp.com/products/Super-Deals/1 ... h-The-Flow
add this and your a jump ahead for wiring
**Broken Link(s) Removed**
Last edited by Sting on Tue. Aug. 10, 2010 8:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Yanche
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Posts: 3030
Joined: Fri. Dec. 23, 2005 12:45 pm
Stoker Coal Boiler: Alternate Heating Systems S-130
Coal Size/Type: Anthracite Pea
Location: Sykesville, Maryland

Post Tue. Aug. 10, 2010 8:22 pm

There are various ways to connect two boilers depending on what you are trying to accomplish and if and how you heat your domestic hot water. The simplest is illustrated in the manual you reference, which I have copied here. Only a single additional circulator is needed. The purpose of the additional circulator is to get the coal boiler's water to the existing boiler. The burner on the existing boiler is kept from firing by some means. Then the existing circulator, room thermostat take over controlling the water flow. If you have a domestic hot water coil in the existing boiler you still get domestic how water from it. Obviously the control system needs to be modified so the existing boiler water stays hot.
Trident_Install_Piping.jpg
There are other ways to connect two or more boilers. It's known as primary secondary piping systems. It's a way of using circulator pumps to control water flow rather than using valves. In it's most complex form it uses three pumps, one on each boiler and one on the primary loop. This is in addition to what ever pumps are used in your existing radiation system. The primary secondary system is the most adaptive. With a proper control system you can switch between boilers with an electrical switch. This switch can be manual {(e.g. coal or oil) or (e.g. summer or winter)} or automatic switchover if the coal fails. Do a search on "primary secondary" for lots of opinions on how others have piped their boilers. There is a lot to learn. I would suggest studying what's posted on this forum, search the internet for articles published by "John Seigenthaler" or buy his book.

jaimz23
Member
Posts: 130
Joined: Sun. Jan. 24, 2010 11:35 am
Hand Fed Coal Boiler: Harman Trident SF-260
Stove/Furnace Make: Burnham Boiler/Harman Trident
Stove/Furnace Model: V-13A/SF-260

Post Tue. Aug. 10, 2010 8:58 pm

Thanks for the replies. I went up and spoke to my brother-in-law who has a huge outside coal boiler hooked into his current oil boiler set up and he explained what is done to me. He said he has his hooked up the same way that the trident boiler picture shows and what he does is just turns down the needed water temps in the oil boiler's control box and has his coal boiler set at 180 degrees and the extra circulator pushes the hot water from the coal to the oil boiler so the oil boiler controls never sees temps below the low number that he put it to and the existing circulator(s) (depending on how many zones you have) work when the thermostat(s) call for heat.

Does this sound about right?

My new question is... How much would a firebox reducer for my Trident SF-260 cost? I have looked around the forum a bit and even checked their site and they barely mention it and give no prices.

Thanks to all who replied.

jaimz23
Member
Posts: 130
Joined: Sun. Jan. 24, 2010 11:35 am
Hand Fed Coal Boiler: Harman Trident SF-260
Stove/Furnace Make: Burnham Boiler/Harman Trident
Stove/Furnace Model: V-13A/SF-260

Post Tue. Aug. 10, 2010 10:40 pm

Damn...I just went downstairs and was looking at my existing set up (oil boiler Only) and I am pretty sure the circulation pump that I have is in the feed/hot water line, not in the return line. Would this be a issue? Can I just put one in between the 2 boilers on a tee like in the diagram and be okay...and leave the one that is already there in the feed/hot water line where it is?

Sorry All, unexpected issue...

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Sting
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Posts: 2966
Joined: Mon. Feb. 25, 2008 4:24 pm
Other Heating: OBSO Lennox Pulse "Air Scorcher" burning NG
Location: Lower Fox Valley = Wisconsin

Post Tue. Aug. 10, 2010 11:01 pm

Read the books

or

https://coalpail.com/coal-forum/search.php?keywords=ser ... mit=Search

These questions do not have a yes or no answer - every install is different - you need -- NEED to get a general grasp of what this is all about and it will be far easier.

Don't rush - it will become clear

jaimz23
Member
Posts: 130
Joined: Sun. Jan. 24, 2010 11:35 am
Hand Fed Coal Boiler: Harman Trident SF-260
Stove/Furnace Make: Burnham Boiler/Harman Trident
Stove/Furnace Model: V-13A/SF-260

Post Wed. Aug. 11, 2010 8:33 pm

Yeah...I'm not gonna read the books. I mean what else are the forums for, if not to ask questions from people who know and get answers.

Question 1: I have a existing oil boiler with a circulation pump in the supply line directly after the expansion tank...I am going to be connecting a Harman Trident SF-260 into the existing system using the supplied diagram in the manual...Will it be okay to put a second circulation pump in the return line between the two boilers. Not have 2 in the return line, but one in the supply line where it is already and one in the return line in between the 2 boilers and hook everything up the way it shows in the diagram with no other pipes, dump zones, or other circulation pumps beside the 2 I have listed. If I need something else pipes, pumps...etc., what is it?

Question 2: Does anyone know the price of a firebox reducer for my boiler?

Pretty straightforward I think. Well question 1 is a yes or no with side bars. lol, but not too bad. It's not that I don't want to read the books...okay I just don't want to read the books. if I can't get the help here, I'll probably just hire someone to do it.

Thanks

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Sting
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Joined: Mon. Feb. 25, 2008 4:24 pm
Other Heating: OBSO Lennox Pulse "Air Scorcher" burning NG
Location: Lower Fox Valley = Wisconsin

Post Wed. Aug. 11, 2010 8:35 pm

:|

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CapeCoaler
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Posts: 4469
Joined: Sun. Feb. 10, 2008 3:48 pm
Stoker Coal Boiler: want AA130
Hand Fed Coal Stove: DS Machine BS#4, Harman MKII, Hitzer 503,...
Coal Size/Type: Pea/Nut/Stove
Location: Cape Cod, MA

Post Wed. Aug. 11, 2010 11:31 pm

You can hook it up any way you want...
Although you may not get the results you were expecting...
Part of the problem of doing projects...
Is you first need to be educated enough about the design principles...
To understand how to do it properly the first time...
Even if you hire someone to do it...
How do you know it is done the 'right' way...
Skim the forum and books and you can make a better informed decision...
Firebox reducers are usually home made...

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Sting
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Posts: 2966
Joined: Mon. Feb. 25, 2008 4:24 pm
Other Heating: OBSO Lennox Pulse "Air Scorcher" burning NG
Location: Lower Fox Valley = Wisconsin

Post Thu. Aug. 12, 2010 7:57 am

CapeCoaler wrote:You can hook it up any way you want...
Thank-you CapeCoaler for that eloquent response - something I often do not have the patience for and as a result my edit above to a simple smile :P

Oh well -- So it goes.

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Rick 386
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Posts: 2474
Joined: Mon. Jan. 28, 2008 4:26 pm
Stoker Coal Boiler: AA 260 heating both sides of twin farmhouse
Hot Air Coal Stoker Stove: LL Hyfire II w/ coaltrol in garage
Coal Size/Type: Pea in AA 260, Rice in LL Hyfire II
Other Heating: Gas fired infared at work
Location: Royersford, Pa
Contact:

Post Thu. Aug. 12, 2010 3:10 pm

jaimz23 wrote:(snip) Yeah...I'm not gonna read the books. I mean what else are the forums for, if not to ask questions from people who know and get answers.

(snip) Pretty straightforward I think. Well question 1 is a yes or no with side bars. lol, but not too bad. It's not that I don't want to read the books...okay I just don't want to read the books. if I can't get the help here, I'll probably just hire someone to do it.

Thanks
DUDE, you need to chill a bit !!!!!! The answers are already here and if not they will be answered. YOU have to do a little work on your own. Sorry but that is the way this forum operates. I seem to remember you having an issue with the oil burner back in January. And at that time you were advised to have a little patience.......

The advise you were given by one of the greatest figments of the internet (Sting) was right on. IF YOU do a little research by reading those books, or at least skimming through them or searching the archives here, YOU will have a better understanding of how your heating system works now and how it will work in the future. As was mentioned there are all kinds of ways to hook up a coal unit along side an oil burner and share the piping system through out the house. Some are more efficient than others. But most will work to some degree. If you understand the basic principles, you will be able to make changes to make your system perform the way you want it to.

If I have misunderstood your post I apologize.

Rick

jaimz23
Member
Posts: 130
Joined: Sun. Jan. 24, 2010 11:35 am
Hand Fed Coal Boiler: Harman Trident SF-260
Stove/Furnace Make: Burnham Boiler/Harman Trident
Stove/Furnace Model: V-13A/SF-260

Post Thu. Aug. 12, 2010 6:43 pm

Woah, woah, woah here fellas. I meant no ill will by what I was saying. Sometimes what is written can be misconstrued as a attitude, but that was not what I intended. I just didn't see myself spending the $130.00 on the books and sitting down to read 5 or 6 books. Combined with the lack of time I have because of all the travel that I do for work and my basic A.D.D (LOL)., I just don't think it would be possible to read up on the subject before the heating season is upon us. I understand that there are multiple ways to do this, but I was just wondering if the Harman Trident manuual's diagram would be okay with my 1 pump in the supply and the other in the return between the 2 boilers because I only have 1 zone.

Sting does sound very knowledegable and my biggest apologies to him if I offended him, but call it a lack of patience on my part, nothing more. He was actually spot on when he said I would have more questions than answers. New questions arise every day. Even when I figure all of this part of it out, I still have to figure out how to do a dump zone properly. There are circulators, NC or NO Zone valves, radiator or copper finned tubing, gravity, figuring how big it needs to be...etc. etc. etc. I didn't even know I had to do one until a few days ago. So my quest goes on.

I will honestly make a effort to research this to the best of my abilities and let all of you know what happens. Thanks and sorry for the confusion Sting and others I bow down to your knowledge and my lack thereof.

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Sting
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Joined: Mon. Feb. 25, 2008 4:24 pm
Other Heating: OBSO Lennox Pulse "Air Scorcher" burning NG
Location: Lower Fox Valley = Wisconsin

Post Thu. Aug. 12, 2010 9:42 pm

No confusion

Your question: what are these forums for?

Rings clear

its For saps like me to provide free advise

But its a two way street -- I have to want to :lol: And with 9 fingers still -- its tough to type the preamble to the constitution for guys that lack the rudimentary skills to help themselves. You will have to bring yourself up to speed - or your may be the next victim of the lowest bidder who you hire from the yellow pages to do your install.

I need a speech recognition program to do my typing.

Or more beer -----

ding ding ding -- I think I made a choice here!

Image

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Rick 386
Member
Posts: 2474
Joined: Mon. Jan. 28, 2008 4:26 pm
Stoker Coal Boiler: AA 260 heating both sides of twin farmhouse
Hot Air Coal Stoker Stove: LL Hyfire II w/ coaltrol in garage
Coal Size/Type: Pea in AA 260, Rice in LL Hyfire II
Other Heating: Gas fired infared at work
Location: Royersford, Pa
Contact:

Post Thu. Aug. 12, 2010 10:40 pm

Sting wrote:I need a speech recognition program to do my typing.
Oh c'mon Sting. It's about time you update that old Apple IIc or are you still on the Commodore 64 ??? :funny: :nana:

Windows Vista has it built in : http://www.microsoft.com/enable/products/windowsv ... peech.aspx

How are the digits doing anyhow ?? I don't believe we ever saw any pictures of the carnage. :stretcher:

Jaimz23, No problem !!!! That's the problem with just viewing typed words, you never hear the tone or intent. (or sarcasm)

----------------------------------------

Rick

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Sting
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Posts: 2966
Joined: Mon. Feb. 25, 2008 4:24 pm
Other Heating: OBSO Lennox Pulse "Air Scorcher" burning NG
Location: Lower Fox Valley = Wisconsin

Post Thu. Aug. 12, 2010 10:46 pm

Windows 95 on a 386

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