Help with excessive coal usage.

 
k-2
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Post by k-2 » Fri. Feb. 23, 2024 10:15 am

Gene315 wrote:
Thu. Feb. 22, 2024 11:23 pm
I am in no way disagreeing with you..just relaying what I'm being told from seller, installer, designer/manufacture. I'm just a ping pong ball at this point..I remember being told about this game by my parents..something about kicking a can...
Someone needs to find out why a 150000 BTU boiler cannot heat a single zone. Bypass or no bypass. Most of your btus are going up the flue because they are not going into your radiation. Why? I think someone screwed up during construction of this boiler. Cant think of any other cause for your results. Your producing 100 Million BTUs a month with 4 ton of coal, more than an entire winters worth for the average home. A whole winters worth of heat in my 3000 sf home.


 
Dave 1234
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Post by Dave 1234 » Fri. Feb. 23, 2024 12:00 pm

A quick isolation and run-time, to heat the water in the boiler from room temperature, to operating temp would rule out the boiler .

I'll bet lunch that Gene's boiler heats it's water in the same time or less , than any boiler on this forum of the same gallons of water, with the same Lbs per hour of coal .

Now , is it piped poorly , is it to small , is there a restriction ?

Thats step 2 , but the boiler needs to be verified first , if nobody wants egg on their shirt .

 
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Lightning
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Post by Lightning » Fri. Feb. 23, 2024 12:40 pm

If you do decide to try and "isolate" the boiler, do it by only closing either the return OR the supply main, not both. The expansion will need a path to the expansion tanks.

 
k-2
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Post by k-2 » Fri. Feb. 23, 2024 1:33 pm

Dave 1234 wrote:
Fri. Feb. 23, 2024 12:00 pm
A quick isolation and run-time, to heat the water in the boiler from room temperature, to operating temp would rule out the boiler .
I agree , but iv been forming my opinion on the statement that a 150000 BTU boiler cannot heat a single zone to temperature despite hours of run time at max output and coal use. I think if it were a piping or bypass issue the boiler would be overheating the water not under heating it. But the jury is still out. I suppose it possible its getting too much air and driving the lions share of the heat up the flue,but the heat is going somewhere. I would think the Mfg would be on this like white on snow.

 
Dave 1234
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Post by Dave 1234 » Sun. Feb. 25, 2024 4:17 pm

k-2 wrote:
Fri. Feb. 23, 2024 1:33 pm
I agree , but iv been forming my opinion on the statement that a 150000 BTU boiler cannot heat a single zone to temperature despite hours of run time at max output and coal use. I think if it were a piping or bypass issue the boiler would be overheating the water not under heating it. But the jury is still out. I suppose it possible its getting too much air and driving the lions share of the heat up the flue,but the heat is going somewhere. I would think the Mfg would be on this like white on snow.
DS started testing at their shop , and delivering to the coal burning public, this unit in 2017 . On this forum not one peep about them to say it won't put out heat . Or that it gobbles coal .

So thats strange .

I bought a 2012 F-350 new, with a 6.4 diesel . Well in no time flat it had big issues with the emissions system filling the crank case full of fuel . [Mine and every other owners] That 6.4 was flagged NG by everyone , really fast .

Thats just my logic , as for Gene's heat mystery, we may never know about this set-up and what made it flop .

 
Ajcardin99
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Post by Ajcardin99 » Sun. Feb. 25, 2024 9:54 pm

Hello Gene
I am sorry for you bad luck, I have read threw the comments and maybe i can help with some of the trouble shooting. Most service guys are there to try to quickly find out what is wrong and your problem is beyond changing parts. I am going to ask a few repetitive question that my have been answer but i just want to confirm what is right about the system, so the wrong will be the only thing left. From the picture it seams like you have the coal and oil boiler piped in series with a bypass value over the oil boiler. Then when the oil boiler is running it uses all the circulator to push water there the coal boiler to the building.

I am looking to use the stare and compare method of trouble shooting.

A) With oil and the old AA you can heat the space and satisfy the heat call on all zones in the building. Yes correct
B) as the return hit the coal boiler first then the oil looking to see when the oil is running what is the temp on the gauge in the coal boiler. Looking to see what the return water temp is compared to supply temp hoping 160 return threw coal boiler and 180 supply from oil and at what outside air temp. If its more than 20 degs difference how much?

Looking to isolate some thing in these areas
1) Fire ( you are burn a S**T ton of coal so you can make flame)
2) Flame to fire box
3) Fire Box to boiler water
4) Boiler water to useable heat
5) Flue Gas to Outside.

From what i have read you have high Flue gas temps , have you check the stick out of the black pipe in the thimble going into the chimney. just want to make sure it not to far in. ( Didn't Like the flame with the fan on it seams to all over the fire box and not having the draft from the chimney pull it and the fan assist.)

Next when you isolated to one zone for trouble shooting where the other zone valued off. Just want to confirm all check values are working. Since you have a reduction from 1 1/2 to 1" at the boiler just want to make sure you are not pulling threw other zones. I want to question flow threw the boiler, as you are only piped to one of the two ports. Just like when you put your fingers over part of the end of a garden hose and get the hose to shoot further. I think you may be sending the water threw the boiler with two much velocity causing the water to move over only a small area of the fire box to fast and exiting the boiler before it can absorbed the heat. This would cause all the heat to go up the chimney before the boiler can transfer it to the water.

 
Gene315
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Post by Gene315 » Tue. Feb. 27, 2024 3:32 pm

Seller and a Tech were here. Turn off circulators to isolate them and made sure nothing was pushing through any. I had to suggest closing ball valve to gravity fed zone. They ran the boiler down to 120° and timed it to 160° for DS. It took 27 minutes. Not sure what that indicates but I guess they call that a heat test in their world. Both remarked ash look good and fire looked good AGAIN. Didn't say too much more. Feel they were just gathering info against me not for me. Never even looked at auger to diagnosis it's issue..


 
k-2
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Post by k-2 » Tue. Feb. 27, 2024 4:17 pm

Gene315 wrote:
Tue. Feb. 27, 2024 3:32 pm
They ran the boiler down to 120° and timed it to 160° for DS. It took 27 minutes. Not sure what that indicates but I guess they call that a heat test in their world.
Did they happen to mention how that compared to their in house testing? And did they tell you what your flue temps should be ,and did they test your flue temps ?

 
Dave 1234
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Post by Dave 1234 » Tue. Feb. 27, 2024 5:56 pm

Gene , was the 27 min including starting the coal as a new fire, or was the fire just dormant , and after the water cooled to 120 deg , they started the stoker back up ?

 
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Post by Lightning » Tue. Feb. 27, 2024 9:49 pm

When considering 50 gallons of water and 1000 pounds of steel (specific heat of .21 BTU/lb/degree F) rising 40 degrees in 27 minutes, I come up with about 56,000 BTU/hour absorbed.

What feed rate was it set on?

 
Gene315
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Post by Gene315 » Wed. Feb. 28, 2024 9:51 am

k-2 wrote:
Tue. Feb. 27, 2024 4:17 pm
Did they happen to mention how that compared to their in house testing? And did they tell you what your flue temps should be ,and did they test your flue temps ?
Didn't mention anything . I tried to engage in question and answer and it was kinda awkward and uncomfortable with these 2 new people actually..

 
Gene315
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Post by Gene315 » Wed. Feb. 28, 2024 9:58 am

Lightning wrote:
Tue. Feb. 27, 2024 9:49 pm
When considering 50 gallons of water and 1000 pounds of steel (specific heat of .21 BTU/lb/degree F) rising 40 degrees in 27 minutes, I come up with about 56,000 BTU/hour absorbed.

What feed rate was it set on?
For whatever reason they left it at 2 and 9. I even told them its usually at 3-3.5 and 10 but I set it back only because it was 60° and didn't see a reason to run it full throttle over night etc..supposed to be variable for that reason...was a very weird test in my opinion by so called experts..according to the chart without exact settings it reference it couldnt be accurately read without another one to set the same way and time. Why not do it from 3-10 or 2 and 2.5 like the chart reads.

 
nut
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Post by nut » Wed. Feb. 28, 2024 10:00 am

I'm not familiar with this type of system but 27 minutes seems like a long time ,no?

 
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Lightning
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Post by Lightning » Wed. Feb. 28, 2024 10:06 am

nut wrote:
Wed. Feb. 28, 2024 10:00 am
I'm not familiar with this type of system but 27 minutes seems like a long time ,no?
I would say Yes, that seems like long while to get from 120 to 160 with no heat load on the boiler, if that in fact is the case. The more concerning thing to me is that it's only absorbing 56,000 BTU per hour, again if my math is right and those conditions I'm assuming are accurate.

 
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Post by Lightning » Wed. Feb. 28, 2024 10:12 am

According to the manual I found online, a feed rate of 2 uses 9.5 pounds per hour.. gross input of 118,750 BTU.. which puts it at 47% efficiency overall at THAT feed rate.. again if my other assumptions are accurate. Which makes sense according to the heating problem.

I'm no expert but math doesn't lie..


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