Putting my AA130 to use

 
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StokerDon
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Post by StokerDon » Mon. Jun. 05, 2023 5:36 pm

Retro_Origin wrote:
Sun. Jun. 04, 2023 8:54 pm
How do you avoid puffbacks when you manually ash? just keep the port door open a little after manually ashing? My fire looks pretty strong right now, we'll have to see what the next few days bring...
You don't get puffbacks when you manually ash. You get puffbacks when your running 3 teeth in the Summer time and you burry the fire. :lol:
If anything you should be backing off the amount of teeth you are running. If the fire never breaks through the top get ready for a puff.

-Don


 
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Retro_Origin
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Post by Retro_Origin » Mon. Jun. 05, 2023 7:36 pm

StokerDon wrote:
Mon. Jun. 05, 2023 5:36 pm
You don't get puffbacks when you manually ash. You get puffbacks when your running 3 teeth in the Summer time and you burry the fire. :lol:
If anything you should be backing off the amount of teeth you are running. If the fire never breaks through the top get ready for a puff.

-Don
Yes I definitely live the 'puffback fear' stage, I have the hole drilled in my draft plate and don't plan to change it! I still haven't switched to the pid ashing control, though I have all the stuff.
So basically what you guys are saying is as long as the flames are freely breaking through the surface around the perimeter then any new volatiles should have opportunity to burn off as they are introduced but the smothering traps them all in one place then....kapowzer!

I gotta say the EFM seems to have the best system for summer running- that is hands off and user friendly. Trying to explain running these units in the summer doesn't sound like a great way to sell someone one of these, if that person just wants a heat source...but then we're affecionados aren't we!?

 
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Post by Rob R. » Mon. Jun. 05, 2023 8:09 pm

Retro_Origin wrote:
Mon. Jun. 05, 2023 7:36 pm
I gotta say the EFM seems to have the best system for summer running- that is hands off and user friendly.
Tough to argue with that. Mine has been running Since October with the same settings. No outfires, ash looks good.

 
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Lightning
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Post by Lightning » Tue. Jun. 06, 2023 1:22 pm

StokerDon wrote:
Mon. Jun. 05, 2023 5:36 pm
You get puffbacks when your running 3 teeth in the Summer time and you burry the fire.
If anything you should be backing off the amount of teeth you are running. If the fire never breaks through the top get ready for a puff.
According to the bureau report they had to up the ratchet to 3 clicks for summertime use. Although there is truth to your statement. I did witness a small puffback yesterday because the fire didn't break thru on a boiler temperature maintenance fan run. It puffed as soon as the fan winded down. As an attempt to fix the buried fire I upped the exhaust Inkbird to initiate ashing at 260 instead of 230. At 260 in the exhaust stream the fire is starting to roar. This should shorten ashing time a little bit and raise the fire, I'll let ya know what happens..

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Post by Retro_Origin » Tue. Jun. 06, 2023 6:58 pm

Rob R. wrote:
Mon. Jun. 05, 2023 8:09 pm
Tough to argue with that. Mine has been running Since October with the same settings. No outfires, ash looks good.
I'd be bored if I had an efm. Haha my stoker is like a pet, although I always point people toward efm
Lightning wrote:
Tue. Jun. 06, 2023 1:22 pm
According to the bureau report they had to up the ratchet to 3 clicks for summertime use. Although there is truth to your statement. I did witness a small puffback yesterday because the fire didn't break thru on a boiler temperature maintenance fan run. It puffed as soon as the fan winded down. As an attempt to fix the buried fire I upped the exhaust Inkbird to initiate ashing at 260 instead of 230. At 260 in the exhaust stream the fire is starting to roar. This should shorten ashing time a little bit and raise the fire, I'll let ya know what happens..

It might be all in my head but I think if the ashing is too slow the coals stay too high and then get oxygen thru the flapper door port when the boiler is idling from the bypass air. I'm hesitant to go three clicks but even after a few minutes run the raw coal pile is pretty small at the bottom of the transfer head chute

 
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Post by Retro_Origin » Mon. Jun. 26, 2023 8:13 pm

So I think I had a breakthru moment, time will tell. I had another outfire Sunday, a few days after noticing the fire starting to crawl up into the transfer head following the draft through the sight port.

I did a full breakdown, pulled the grata out, cleaned it off, checked all the rollers action, recalibrated the anthrastat (which was off some, but probably doesn't mean anything since it's never satisfied for the summer runs anyway...)

I followed Lee's advice and made sure the fire started was low in the pot, lots of hand ashing and a longer runtime. After I was done the BBQ 12" probe showed about 140, this was perfect, telling me I had got my fire down nice and low.

Previously, the glowing coals were always visible even between heat calls, the BBQ thermometer was usually around 105 and the anthrastat was never ever met (summer running) I think this was my mistake. Even in a 5 minute runtime the stacktemp could get up to 400 very quickly as I assume the fire 'a top' the ashes was shedding a large portion of it's heat in through the heat exchanger area and not being constricted by the fresh coal and not as much heat going through the boiler wet walls, then causing it to go out since it was so near the fresh air.

NOW, after about 4 minutes, the boiler can do what it could previously in 5, but the stack temp stays down near 250, the flames just start to lick their way out of the raw coal and the draft plate door shuts for the very first time with authority! before it was a little lazy, I think too many ashes in the bottom constricting the flow.

Anyway, I think due to my puffback paranoia I had been pretty much running EVERY fire with the expectation to look like a LONG running healthy fire, lots of revealed glow and a high stack temp.

Am I correct in saying that the anthrastat is unlikely to be satisfied at 2 clicks and only DHW runs? I feel like I would have to be at 3 clicks (which I don't want to do! Puffback paranoia!) to get down that far.

Also, would most of you agree that your fire is not visible between runs, under light load? Note, this is buckwheat.

This makes me question everything I did this winter, even though the boiler performed well I just wonder if I was running my fire high up and getting a high fire which was giving up more of it's heat to the exhaust movement than necessary.

 
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Post by Lightning » Tue. Jun. 27, 2023 5:44 pm

For the most part, I'm finding that these machines are very forgiving.. Meaning you can make some pretty extreme adjustments and somehow they find a balance, all on their own. Case in point, I mentioned a few weeks ago that i took the ashing handle "stop" off of the handle so it could as at max speed, mostly 3 clicks on the ratchet. After a few days of that I noticed the fire was getting a little buried and I believe there was even a minor puffback once the fan cut off after a short burn. So, it made sense to me that it was ashing a little too much, a little too fast. To mitigate that, I turned up the exhaust Inkbird to 320 degrees. So now ashing will stay halted until the exhaust temp makes 320 degrees. What I am seeing is that it doesn't ash as often. On most boiler temp maintenance runs it doesn't ash. So most of the ashing is now occuring during heat demand calls for DHW, which in my mind makes better sense, since thats when coal should be added, when the fire is most vigorous. Its been at those settings for a couple of weeks now.. Seems to be doing well so far.


 
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Post by Retro_Origin » Tue. Jun. 27, 2023 6:40 pm

Lightning wrote:
Tue. Jun. 27, 2023 5:44 pm
For the most part, I'm finding that these machines are very forgiving.. Meaning you can make some pretty extreme adjustments and somehow they find a balance, all on their own. Case in point, I mentioned a few weeks ago that i took the ashing handle "stop" off of the handle so it could as at max speed, mostly 3 clicks on the ratchet. After a few days of that I noticed the fire was getting a little buried and I believe there was even a minor puffback once the fan cut off after a short burn. So, it made sense to me that it was ashing a little too much, a little too fast. To mitigate that, I turned up the exhaust Inkbird to 320 degrees. So now ashing will stay halted until the exhaust temp makes 320 degrees. What I am seeing is that it doesn't ash as often. On most boiler temp maintenance runs it doesn't ash. So most of the ashing is now occuring during heat demand calls for DHW, which in my mind makes better sense, since thats when coal should be added, when the fire is most vigorous. Its been at those settings for a couple of weeks now.. Seems to be doing well so far.
Interesting....I would think with the exhaust cutoff it would just run until all the coal burned up, unless you're getting significant DHW calls, ours are probably only 2 per day.

I kinda like that idea but for some reason my mind tells me the fire would just thin out and die with some good instigating. But hey, if you've been doing that for a couple of WEEKS...good proof in that pudding! I'll be interested to compare results as far as lbs/day. Your method does seem to be the best way to prevent a puffback, but I would think that if the fire gets too small and can't get up to temp than it would just go out? Dunno...I have to think about it more. It is new to me to not be able to peek in there and see the fire...we just need winter back! :D :D

Are you planning to stay with buck through the winter? I'm planning to, it's way more quiet in the auger!

 
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Post by Retro_Origin » Sat. Jul. 01, 2023 3:42 pm

Well things seem to be going pretty well, I adjusted the feed to 3 clicks since the fire started to rise again. I've got some more confidence in what the inside of the burn chamber should look like and I'd like to see that anthrastat do some stopping or at least the temperature rising a little bit down there.

The beast sure lost it's copper shine, the pigments I guess burned out of the paint! haha! Plus a bit dirty too....I wonder, could I paint it again with some high heat stuff while it's hot? Kinda like inst-curing? :lol: :lol:

Been pretty happy using the PID control, 170 +/- 1 degree really prevents overshoots and makes sure it doesn't run too long unless there is actual draw

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Post by Retro_Origin » Mon. Jan. 22, 2024 7:56 pm

It's been some time since I've updated, after this cold snap I figured the time was ripe!

Built myself a bigger bin (instead of the 55 gal drum). It works pretty well and can hold around 400 lbs if needed.
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I also did a test trying the 'low and slow' method by doing a pulley swap and getting a speed reduction of 40% down to 1:1 fan speed to motor speed yielding 1725 RPM. I ran this for several weeks and found I would burn about 1.5 x (70 [IAT] - OAT average) lbs per day. So if the outdoor temperature was an average of 30 (say, a high of 35, low of 25) 70-30=40 x 1.5 = 60 lbs it was just about dead on. Usually adding up to 5 lbs, (this included domestic water)

I was very happy with this (burning buckwheat still)

After I had some issues I switched back to the original pulley setup and during these cold temps I was pretty close to that same value of 1.5 - so I don't think I gained much of anything.

Saturday morning I topped off my bin and put a new ashtub in: in 2.5 days (60 hours) I burned 260 lbs :o :o some of the nights were in the singles and the days in the teens and MAYBE low 20's - sunday was 20 degrees for almost 24 hrs but a LOT of wind. I know I burnt 3 buckets in that spell.

I also weighed my ash tub
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16 lbs! ! ! ! :o I don't think I've ever seen that kind of ash/coal ratio- it could be skewed a little because there might be a giant lump waiting to fall -but still 3-4 lbs increase is still VERY good. I go 2-3 days on a ROUND ash tub in these cold days, never did that with the keystoker, that's for sure. Best I got with that was 14% ash to coal ratio.

Currently my boiler control is 160-180, this insures a GOOD solid run everytime and never gets low enough where the domestic struggles. My runtimes are close to 15 minutes-I'm happy with that. this is not setup as a highlow, this is a setting of 170 with a 10 degree hysterisis.

I also have the timer setup to run 1 min/hr - but it runs off the NC terminal of the relay, so as long as there has been an actual 'heat call run' within an hr, the timer will never run. This is to keep the fire stimulated on warmish days but unlike a traditional timer it's running the 'off' cycle first (thank you Rob!) - it works like a champ -nothing more annoying than a timer cycle just after a heat call - wasted coal!

 
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Post by swyman » Tue. Jan. 23, 2024 3:22 am

That's some nice looking ash!

 
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Post by Retro_Origin » Wed. Jan. 24, 2024 8:06 pm

2 more days, ash tub is full at 36 lbs - these two days were warmer so probably finally caught up to itself, still about 10% ash to coal ratio - I'm happy with that!

 
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Post by Retro_Origin » Fri. Feb. 16, 2024 3:59 pm

The forum has been too quiet lately!

I've had some very good success with my trusty Axe, after some changes!

I find the 'low and slow method' just sounds better all together and it's easier on the gearbox and fan box in my opinion. My motor is a little used and makes a bit of racket, it sounds pretty noisy at normal settings.

Here's a picture of the pulley difference, basically everything is reduced by about 40% (fan 2750 RPM to 1725, ashing accordingly) by simply switching the pulleys around, fan and motor both get the 3" pulleys(or whatever they are), gearbox gets the big 5"(or whatever) and the drive pulley from the motor is the one slightly smaller 2.75 (or whatever)

I had to make a shim and broach a keyway since motor drive is 1/2 with a 5/8 shim some of the pulleys had different size bores. Belt lengths changed as well.
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Believe it or not, my runtimes are not much different and it only gets to about 325 degrees after an absolute max run. This morning it ran for 25 minutes straight after a heat call and a family member got a hot shower. That's the longest I've EVER seen.

This sherman pea looks like potato wedges!
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I'm getting much better results running the pea rather than buck with the low and slow- but it could just be my imagination. I also did not like the inkbird in place of the anthrastat- i think the 12" probe should not be used since the tip is so near the cone it gets reading from the air path. Back to the stock anthrastat with no problems.

Ash looks stupendous...I'm not even sure when I changed the ash tub!! maybe monday?!
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Several months ago I went to the trouble of making my own ash cone, I don't think this will ever wear out!!!
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Sealed it up REAL GOOD top and bottom!
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The nylon rollers I've been running for over a year have held up PERFECTLY. Some people suggested they would wear out quickly due to the 'heavy forces' - I don't think this tube weighs very much...it might way 40 lbs? And maybe get 20lbs of coal in it? It's not bearing that much weight, you can even see the original machining marks from the lathe on the rollers, just goes to show the surfaces haven't worn at all.
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Replacement ring is 316 stainless steel.

 
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Post by StokerDon » Sat. Feb. 17, 2024 10:22 am

Retro_Origin wrote:
Fri. Feb. 16, 2024 3:59 pm
The forum has been too quiet lately!
I've had some very good success with my trusty Axe, after some changes!
It's up to you to keep it interesting! :lol: :lol:

Glad to hear you're happy with the pulley changes you made. That's what makes an Axeman fun, it's pretty easy to switch things around and get it to match your heat load better.

I'm not sure why the Anthrastat is working out better than the Inkbird. I ran Inkbirds for a few years and the were great. My friend as one with the 12" probe and that works great. He had a couple problems with sticking Anthrastats and running the unit out of coal.
Retro_Origin wrote:
Fri. Feb. 16, 2024 3:59 pm
I also did not like the inkbird in place of the anthrastat- i think the 12" probe should not be used since the tip is so near the cone it gets reading from the air path.
I know this is always a difficult point to make people understand but, both the Inkbird thermocouple and the Anthrastat only see radiant heat. They have no way of sensing air temperature because air does not hold radiant heat very well.

However, there is a big difference between the Anthrastat and the Inkbird thermocouple. The Anthrastat is a 12" Bi-Metalic rod and senses heat across the whole 12". The thermocouple, even though it is 12" long, only senses heat at the tip where the 2 wires are welded together.

-Don

 
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Post by Retro_Origin » Sat. Feb. 17, 2024 9:21 pm

StokerDon wrote:
Sat. Feb. 17, 2024 10:22 am
The thermocouple, even though it is 12" long, only senses heat at the tip where the 2 wires are welded together.
I would get inkbird readings of 85-90 degrees while the fan was running and even see a glow with the door open and looking up.

I'm not sure how to wrap my mind around the inkbird thermocouple only seeing radiant heat...if I can control my boiler with the same probe typed in an immersion well than how will air temperature not drastically effect it's performance? if anything I would think the inkbird probe would have to be pointing toward the fire so the tip could be as close as possible but still above the ash bed- the horizontal approach seems like it should reach mid point of the whole boiler or not be used at all?

It was nice to be able to see ash temp...but since the anthrastat is working so well right now


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