Heat Pumps

 
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davidmcbeth3
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Post by davidmcbeth3 » Tue. Feb. 07, 2023 3:45 pm

Rob R. wrote:
Tue. Feb. 07, 2023 3:41 pm
With enough money anything can be made to work.
I'm not giving the gov't any more $$$.


 
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Post by waytomany?s » Tue. Feb. 07, 2023 3:49 pm

Rob R. wrote:
Tue. Feb. 07, 2023 3:41 pm
With enough money anything can be made to work.
Even Smitty's basement?

 
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BigBarney
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Post by BigBarney » Tue. Feb. 07, 2023 7:58 pm

Smitty' s basement needs 100 kw of dehumidifier energy.

BigBarney

 
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BigBarney
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Post by BigBarney » Tue. Feb. 07, 2023 8:27 pm

Heat down to -30° ....With heat pumps....





The second video is 4 part series , which doubters

need to watch to get the correct info not 20 year

old guesses with John Siegenthaler.

Get the facts with people that designs these

systems every day.

BigBarney

Here's many more seminars and design all available free

all you need to get educated is attendance.

https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=haet ... egenthaler

 
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BigBarney
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Post by BigBarney » Tue. Feb. 07, 2023 8:57 pm

This seminar has FACTS from a real home in Syracuse NY and

how much of the heating can be handled by a well designed

heat pump system with low temperature emitters in a cold

climate .Over 95% of heat and DHW.



Many more European systems are very similar and the

videos are on Youtube. They all go with water at 120° or

less to maximize savings,out of the range of normal

fossil boilers.

I am converting my house to a similar sytem ,next year I

will install the heat pump and related equipment. Now I am

using a baseboard system with low water temperature of about

120 ° F water and it seems to work well even at -5°F with the

more steady heat of a nearly always on pump.

BigBarney

 
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Rob R.
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Post by Rob R. » Tue. Feb. 07, 2023 9:21 pm

There is lots of good stuff available - it just isn't widely adopted yet. In my area you are lucky to find a good AC tech, nevermind one that understands hydronics. I am sure the industry will eventually get there, but they have a long way to go.

Thanks for the videos, I will watch them.

 
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davidmcbeth3
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Post by davidmcbeth3 » Wed. Feb. 08, 2023 12:11 am

BigBarney wrote:
Tue. Feb. 07, 2023 8:57 pm
Over 95% of heat and DHW.
What's the operating cost v coal .. is coal cheaper ?

No one is interested in something unless one first explains $$$ savings. Then people won't care how it works just that it will save $$$.
'


 
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Rob R.
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Post by Rob R. » Wed. Feb. 08, 2023 7:13 am

davidmcbeth3 wrote:
Wed. Feb. 08, 2023 12:11 am
What's the operating cost v coal .. is coal cheaper ?
It depends where you live. My electric rate is about half what I see others quoting on here, and my coal price is high due to my distance from NEPA. At current rates a heat pump would be very competitive with the operating cost of my coal system. The problem is that my house is 110 years old and has high temperature radiation already installed. I can't just switch to a heat pump for central heat without doing a bunch of work to further reduce the heat load of the house, and/or install more radiation. This is a common situation and why new construction lends itself to heat pumps much better than retrofit applications.
davidmcbeth3 wrote:
Wed. Feb. 08, 2023 12:11 am
No one is interested in something unless one first explains $$$ savings. Then people won't care how it works just that it will save $$$.
Bingo. You don't have to mandate anyone to "go electric" in areas where electricity is the most economical choice.

 
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Post by davidmcbeth3 » Wed. Feb. 08, 2023 12:28 pm

Rob R. wrote:
Wed. Feb. 08, 2023 7:13 am
It depends where you live. My electric rate is about half what I see others quoting on here, and my coal price is high due to my distance from NEPA. At current rates a heat pump would be very competitive with the operating cost of my coal system.
Yes, many variables to consider.

How about a specific example ... where a person goes through 1 ton of coal (300 $/ton) and has a electrical rate of 0.25 $/kWhr for a month of heating

Can you now estimate a cost for heat pump heating now that would service equally to that of the 1 ton of coal?

 
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Post by hotblast1357 » Wed. Feb. 08, 2023 12:39 pm

On a normal day, 25-35 degrees, I burn around 30-35 pounds of coal at .10 per pound, that’s $3 per day, that is for my hot water also, say two showers and a load of dishes, my heat pump will use around 800 KW per hour, or 19.2 KW for the day at .15 per KW, that’s $2.88 for the day, no DHW.. I paid 217/ton for my coal when last purchased.

It seems competitive, but I am more less using the heat pump to save my coal stash, if I were to go full heat pump, I would need another one, and still would need oil furnace or something for the week or two when it’s as cold as -30.

I do like the ease of operation with the heat pump, essentially nothing to worry about or maintain, coal has obviously gone up in cost, but if electricity goes up to much it would be a wash.

 
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Post by davidmcbeth3 » Wed. Feb. 08, 2023 1:13 pm

For me I pay about $500 a ton with $0.35 kWh for electricity .. so using your value of 35 lbs/day of coal and 19.2 kWh I can convert for my fuel costs

coal = $500 / ton * 35 # / day *& 1 ton / 2000 # = $ 8.75 / day

Electric = 19.2 kWh/day * $0.35 /kWh = $ 6.72 /day

% of cost of electricity v. coal = [ $6.72 / day divided by $ 8.75/day] times 100% = 76.8 %

Cost savings, % = 100% - 76.8 % = 23.2 %

People can use the formulas above to crunch their own numbers substitution $/ton for coal and electric rates (use delivered costs and not just generation costs). Or even substitute a different type of fuel, wood or nat. gas. or oil, if known the amt. used and cost.

And its based on today's values for me...last yr coal was $325 / ton and 0.25 dollars/Kwh. Recalc..coal=$5.7/day and electrical $4.8/day (16% savings electrical over coal)

So money-wise..looks like heat pumps maybe a good subject to further investigate

 
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Post by BigBarney » Wed. Feb. 08, 2023 1:36 pm

Use the calculator Richard has provided on this site and

compare... Change the geothermal to ~350% and plug in

cost of coal and you'l get you results...Also plug in the cost

of electric in your area in the geothermal.

In my area $0.16 KWHr for regular electric. So coal is $1500.00

and heat pump $1340.00 with coal at $300.00 ton.

You have to remember that no fossil fuel can acheive 100%

efficiency and heat pumps can have up to ~1000% as the theoretical

maximum which we have not achieved yet, some are able to get to

800% so far wait for the future advances.

BigBarney

 
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Post by davidmcbeth3 » Wed. Feb. 08, 2023 1:40 pm

https://electromn.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/04/BL901.pdf

I did find this heat pump boiler system company, product specs linked ^

But I cannot find a price for the 5 ton heat-only HP boiler. I called a few places that listed it on-line but when I call they say that they cannot either a) give me a price or b) even know how they would get it (yeah, even though they list it on their own website).

The link shows several varieties that they carry...the 5 ton one is a 60K BTU one..my current boiler is 80K I think.

 
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Post by davidmcbeth3 » Wed. Feb. 08, 2023 1:49 pm

BigBarney wrote:
Wed. Feb. 08, 2023 1:36 pm
Change the geothermal to ~350% and plug in


BigBarney
Or make efficiency for geo thermal to 100% and lower cost of electricity to 4.5 cents a kWh to get to $1300/mmBTU

Which is same $$/mmBTU as coal at $265/ton lol

 
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Post by hotblast1357 » Mon. Aug. 14, 2023 3:25 pm

Just purchased two more 9k BTU heat pumps for the opposite side of the house, to service the two bedrooms and two bathrooms upstairs.

Now that the entire house can be heated, hoping to cut down to December, January, and February for burning coal, all other heat will be via air source heat pumps.

Goal would be only January and February on coal when it is coldest here, but that just depends on the weather.


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