I'm not giving the gov't any more $$$.
Heat Pumps
- davidmcbeth3
- Member
- Posts: 8505
- Joined: Sun. Jun. 14, 2009 2:31 pm
- Coal Size/Type: nut/pea/anthra
-
- Member
- Posts: 3976
- Joined: Fri. Aug. 16, 2019 3:02 pm
- Location: Oneida, N.Y.
- Hand Fed Coal Stove: Harmon Mark II
- Hand Fed Coal Furnace: Looking
- Baseburners & Antiques: Looking
- Coal Size/Type: Nut
- Other Heating: newmac wood/coal combo furnace
Heat down to -30° ....With heat pumps....
The second video is 4 part series , which doubters
need to watch to get the correct info not 20 year
old guesses with John Siegenthaler.
Get the facts with people that designs these
systems every day.
BigBarney
Here's many more seminars and design all available free
all you need to get educated is attendance.
https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=haet ... egenthaler
The second video is 4 part series , which doubters
need to watch to get the correct info not 20 year
old guesses with John Siegenthaler.
Get the facts with people that designs these
systems every day.
BigBarney
Here's many more seminars and design all available free
all you need to get educated is attendance.
https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=haet ... egenthaler
This seminar has FACTS from a real home in Syracuse NY and
how much of the heating can be handled by a well designed
heat pump system with low temperature emitters in a cold
climate .Over 95% of heat and DHW.
Many more European systems are very similar and the
videos are on Youtube. They all go with water at 120° or
less to maximize savings,out of the range of normal
fossil boilers.
I am converting my house to a similar sytem ,next year I
will install the heat pump and related equipment. Now I am
using a baseboard system with low water temperature of about
120 ° F water and it seems to work well even at -5°F with the
more steady heat of a nearly always on pump.
BigBarney
how much of the heating can be handled by a well designed
heat pump system with low temperature emitters in a cold
climate .Over 95% of heat and DHW.
Many more European systems are very similar and the
videos are on Youtube. They all go with water at 120° or
less to maximize savings,out of the range of normal
fossil boilers.
I am converting my house to a similar sytem ,next year I
will install the heat pump and related equipment. Now I am
using a baseboard system with low water temperature of about
120 ° F water and it seems to work well even at -5°F with the
more steady heat of a nearly always on pump.
BigBarney
- Rob R.
- Site Moderator
- Posts: 18009
- Joined: Fri. Dec. 28, 2007 4:26 pm
- Location: Chazy, NY
- Stoker Coal Boiler: EFM 520
- Hand Fed Coal Stove: Chubby Jr
There is lots of good stuff available - it just isn't widely adopted yet. In my area you are lucky to find a good AC tech, nevermind one that understands hydronics. I am sure the industry will eventually get there, but they have a long way to go.
Thanks for the videos, I will watch them.
Thanks for the videos, I will watch them.
- davidmcbeth3
- Member
- Posts: 8505
- Joined: Sun. Jun. 14, 2009 2:31 pm
- Coal Size/Type: nut/pea/anthra
- Rob R.
- Site Moderator
- Posts: 18009
- Joined: Fri. Dec. 28, 2007 4:26 pm
- Location: Chazy, NY
- Stoker Coal Boiler: EFM 520
- Hand Fed Coal Stove: Chubby Jr
It depends where you live. My electric rate is about half what I see others quoting on here, and my coal price is high due to my distance from NEPA. At current rates a heat pump would be very competitive with the operating cost of my coal system. The problem is that my house is 110 years old and has high temperature radiation already installed. I can't just switch to a heat pump for central heat without doing a bunch of work to further reduce the heat load of the house, and/or install more radiation. This is a common situation and why new construction lends itself to heat pumps much better than retrofit applications.davidmcbeth3 wrote: ↑Wed. Feb. 08, 2023 12:11 amWhat's the operating cost v coal .. is coal cheaper ?
Bingo. You don't have to mandate anyone to "go electric" in areas where electricity is the most economical choice.davidmcbeth3 wrote: ↑Wed. Feb. 08, 2023 12:11 amNo one is interested in something unless one first explains $$$ savings. Then people won't care how it works just that it will save $$$.
- davidmcbeth3
- Member
- Posts: 8505
- Joined: Sun. Jun. 14, 2009 2:31 pm
- Coal Size/Type: nut/pea/anthra
Yes, many variables to consider.
How about a specific example ... where a person goes through 1 ton of coal (300 $/ton) and has a electrical rate of 0.25 $/kWhr for a month of heating
Can you now estimate a cost for heat pump heating now that would service equally to that of the 1 ton of coal?
- hotblast1357
- Member
- Posts: 5661
- Joined: Mon. Mar. 10, 2014 10:06 pm
- Location: Peasleeville NY
- Stoker Coal Boiler: 1984 Eshland S260 coal gun
- Coal Size/Type: Lehigh anthracite pea
- Other Heating: air source heat pump, oil furnace
On a normal day, 25-35 degrees, I burn around 30-35 pounds of coal at .10 per pound, that’s $3 per day, that is for my hot water also, say two showers and a load of dishes, my heat pump will use around 800 KW per hour, or 19.2 KW for the day at .15 per KW, that’s $2.88 for the day, no DHW.. I paid 217/ton for my coal when last purchased.
It seems competitive, but I am more less using the heat pump to save my coal stash, if I were to go full heat pump, I would need another one, and still would need oil furnace or something for the week or two when it’s as cold as -30.
I do like the ease of operation with the heat pump, essentially nothing to worry about or maintain, coal has obviously gone up in cost, but if electricity goes up to much it would be a wash.
It seems competitive, but I am more less using the heat pump to save my coal stash, if I were to go full heat pump, I would need another one, and still would need oil furnace or something for the week or two when it’s as cold as -30.
I do like the ease of operation with the heat pump, essentially nothing to worry about or maintain, coal has obviously gone up in cost, but if electricity goes up to much it would be a wash.
- davidmcbeth3
- Member
- Posts: 8505
- Joined: Sun. Jun. 14, 2009 2:31 pm
- Coal Size/Type: nut/pea/anthra
For me I pay about $500 a ton with $0.35 kWh for electricity .. so using your value of 35 lbs/day of coal and 19.2 kWh I can convert for my fuel costs
coal = $500 / ton * 35 # / day *& 1 ton / 2000 # = $ 8.75 / day
Electric = 19.2 kWh/day * $0.35 /kWh = $ 6.72 /day
% of cost of electricity v. coal = [ $6.72 / day divided by $ 8.75/day] times 100% = 76.8 %
Cost savings, % = 100% - 76.8 % = 23.2 %
People can use the formulas above to crunch their own numbers substitution $/ton for coal and electric rates (use delivered costs and not just generation costs). Or even substitute a different type of fuel, wood or nat. gas. or oil, if known the amt. used and cost.
And its based on today's values for me...last yr coal was $325 / ton and 0.25 dollars/Kwh. Recalc..coal=$5.7/day and electrical $4.8/day (16% savings electrical over coal)
So money-wise..looks like heat pumps maybe a good subject to further investigate
coal = $500 / ton * 35 # / day *& 1 ton / 2000 # = $ 8.75 / day
Electric = 19.2 kWh/day * $0.35 /kWh = $ 6.72 /day
% of cost of electricity v. coal = [ $6.72 / day divided by $ 8.75/day] times 100% = 76.8 %
Cost savings, % = 100% - 76.8 % = 23.2 %
People can use the formulas above to crunch their own numbers substitution $/ton for coal and electric rates (use delivered costs and not just generation costs). Or even substitute a different type of fuel, wood or nat. gas. or oil, if known the amt. used and cost.
And its based on today's values for me...last yr coal was $325 / ton and 0.25 dollars/Kwh. Recalc..coal=$5.7/day and electrical $4.8/day (16% savings electrical over coal)
So money-wise..looks like heat pumps maybe a good subject to further investigate
Use the calculator Richard has provided on this site and
compare... Change the geothermal to ~350% and plug in
cost of coal and you'l get you results...Also plug in the cost
of electric in your area in the geothermal.
In my area $0.16 KWHr for regular electric. So coal is $1500.00
and heat pump $1340.00 with coal at $300.00 ton.
You have to remember that no fossil fuel can acheive 100%
efficiency and heat pumps can have up to ~1000% as the theoretical
maximum which we have not achieved yet, some are able to get to
800% so far wait for the future advances.
BigBarney
compare... Change the geothermal to ~350% and plug in
cost of coal and you'l get you results...Also plug in the cost
of electric in your area in the geothermal.
In my area $0.16 KWHr for regular electric. So coal is $1500.00
and heat pump $1340.00 with coal at $300.00 ton.
You have to remember that no fossil fuel can acheive 100%
efficiency and heat pumps can have up to ~1000% as the theoretical
maximum which we have not achieved yet, some are able to get to
800% so far wait for the future advances.
BigBarney
- davidmcbeth3
- Member
- Posts: 8505
- Joined: Sun. Jun. 14, 2009 2:31 pm
- Coal Size/Type: nut/pea/anthra
https://electromn.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/04/BL901.pdf
I did find this heat pump boiler system company, product specs linked ^
But I cannot find a price for the 5 ton heat-only HP boiler. I called a few places that listed it on-line but when I call they say that they cannot either a) give me a price or b) even know how they would get it (yeah, even though they list it on their own website).
The link shows several varieties that they carry...the 5 ton one is a 60K BTU one..my current boiler is 80K I think.
I did find this heat pump boiler system company, product specs linked ^
But I cannot find a price for the 5 ton heat-only HP boiler. I called a few places that listed it on-line but when I call they say that they cannot either a) give me a price or b) even know how they would get it (yeah, even though they list it on their own website).
The link shows several varieties that they carry...the 5 ton one is a 60K BTU one..my current boiler is 80K I think.
- davidmcbeth3
- Member
- Posts: 8505
- Joined: Sun. Jun. 14, 2009 2:31 pm
- Coal Size/Type: nut/pea/anthra
- hotblast1357
- Member
- Posts: 5661
- Joined: Mon. Mar. 10, 2014 10:06 pm
- Location: Peasleeville NY
- Stoker Coal Boiler: 1984 Eshland S260 coal gun
- Coal Size/Type: Lehigh anthracite pea
- Other Heating: air source heat pump, oil furnace
Just purchased two more 9k BTU heat pumps for the opposite side of the house, to service the two bedrooms and two bathrooms upstairs.
Now that the entire house can be heated, hoping to cut down to December, January, and February for burning coal, all other heat will be via air source heat pumps.
Goal would be only January and February on coal when it is coldest here, but that just depends on the weather.
Now that the entire house can be heated, hoping to cut down to December, January, and February for burning coal, all other heat will be via air source heat pumps.
Goal would be only January and February on coal when it is coldest here, but that just depends on the weather.