Geothermal retrofit for hydronic baseboards

 
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Post by CoalisCoolxWarm » Sat. Jul. 09, 2022 12:21 pm

I have baseboard and radiators.

Can I use a geothermal water-water system effectively, considering the higher temps of 160F-180F required for baseboard and radiators?


 
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Post by Rob R. » Sat. Jul. 09, 2022 12:32 pm

Likely not - but it depends how much baseboard you have vs. the heat load of the house. Some houses are “over radiated” as a result of improvements.

If you want to find out, set your boiler to max out at 140F and see how it goes.

 
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Post by CoalisCoolxWarm » Sat. Jul. 09, 2022 12:56 pm

Rob R. wrote:
Sat. Jul. 09, 2022 12:32 pm
If you want to find out, set your boiler to max out at 140F and see how it goes.
Yeah. Not last year, but tackling more insulation and sealing projects this year. Been on hold about 3 yrs.

I'm waiting for a new contract to come through with a few options. If they take what I want, I'll try to finish up the upstairs and steps for insulation and add blow-in in the attic. Do a few trouble spots...

Looking at mini-splits, but I have all this hydronic and I have my own backhoe and front end loader. I can dig whatever I want, which is reportedly one of the biggest costs?

Weighing the options for 80% of the year. 20% of the year it will likely be too cold for heat pumps anyways and still need the coal.

 
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Post by Retro_Origin » Sat. Jul. 09, 2022 3:05 pm

Doesn't geothermal require a drilled hole, like a well? Don't know what the depths are like.

 
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Post by CoalisCoolxWarm » Sat. Jul. 09, 2022 3:35 pm

Retro_Origin wrote:
Sat. Jul. 09, 2022 3:05 pm
Doesn't geothermal require a drilled hole, like a well? Don't know what the depths are like.
Down like a well or Horizontal into ditches. I have equipment for ditches.

 
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Post by waytomany?s » Sat. Jul. 09, 2022 4:38 pm

CoalisCoolxWarm wrote:
Sat. Jul. 09, 2022 3:35 pm
Down like a well or Horizontal into ditches. I have equipment for ditches.
But how deep of a ditch? I've seen where 3 foot is enough, I've also seen where 10 foot minimum is the requirement. Everyone says something different.

 
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Post by CoalisCoolxWarm » Sat. Jul. 09, 2022 7:13 pm

waytomany?s wrote:
Sat. Jul. 09, 2022 4:38 pm
But how deep of a ditch? I've seen where 3 foot is enough, I've also seen where 10 foot minimum is the requirement. Everyone says something different.
Pretty sure it is below the frost line to keep constant 50F or so. We are about 36" frost line here, so our ditch would be at least 6ft deep. I'd probably go 8-10ft deep if doing it so I would never have to worry about hitting it.

But if it only gets up to 140F, that can be a problem....


 
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Post by McGiever » Sat. Jul. 09, 2022 8:21 pm

You can heat with 100 degrees it’s all about the means of distribution. But yes higher is better.

Can always add lots of “staple up” PEX and aluminum plates. This method uses lower temperature hydronic.

Ground source heat pump is not effected by any 80-20% due to low temps…earth has constant temperature unlike you side yard.

I’ve had GSHP for 25 years now but I use a “pump and dump” with a water well vs the closed glycol circulating loop…no back hoe here. 😁

 
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Post by CoalisCoolxWarm » Sat. Jul. 09, 2022 8:50 pm

What is a pump and dump system?

 
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Post by McGiever » Sat. Jul. 09, 2022 10:44 pm

Not for everyone as you need a lot of water pretty much year round.

As stated, pumped constant temperature well water either gives up it’s heat or accepts the rejected heat by a heat pump refrigerant cycle/loop and then that well water is dumped back to the earth…dumping can be accomplished by several different means.

Summer’s worth of rejected heat is available for the winter heating and vice versa.
No heat is ever made…it just gets moved around. One unit of electric consumed produces 5 or more units of heat. 😁

 
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Post by CoalisCoolxWarm » Sat. Jul. 09, 2022 10:59 pm

McGiever wrote:
Sat. Jul. 09, 2022 10:44 pm
As stated, pumped constant temperature well water either gives up it’s heat or accepts the rejected heat by a heat pump refrigerant cycle/loop and then that well water is dumped back to the earth…dumping can be accomplished by several different means.

Summer’s worth of rejected heat is available for the winter heating and vice versa.
No heat is ever made…it just gets moved around. One unit of electric consumed produces 5 or more units of heat. 😁
Oh, Now you MUST tell me more. lol

How are you "storing" this water from summer heat without losing the BTUs? Wouldn't it move from the well back into the ground?

Maybe you have some deep tanks? lol

 
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Post by McGiever » Sun. Jul. 10, 2022 8:39 am

LOL No, it is more so lost. But not like up a chimney. 😁
We are talking some HUGE amounts of BTUs being transferred back and forth here now over decades, but yes, the “bucket” is even more so HUGE!

 
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Post by CoalisCoolxWarm » Sun. Jul. 10, 2022 10:52 am

So I've been doing some research. Hours and hours. Here are the issues I am finding.

1. Yes they do have high temperature heat pumps. Water to water, Dual stage pumps that heat up to 160F in residential settings.

2. CO2 Air to water for industrial, but I don't even want to guess at the price of industrial units. (not geothermal)

3. High temp air to water, but only down to above freezing temps (not geothermal)

4. Water to water high temp and even regular temp units require around 50F as minimum input temps. According to maps, we would be 51F-52F. Borderline and would operate at the lower end of efficiency.

5. Water increases 1 degree every 70 feet. So for extra 5F would be about 350ft. No idea of the cost, depth required, or how many I'd need

6. My KA6 is 120k BTU output. Using it as a guideline, I'd need about 10 tons. Probably be less than that, depends how much I want to heat the basement. I'll need help on this. We are about 1500 sqft with 2 floors, plus full basement.

7. Noise. Not real clear, but seems about 55dba or so with enclosure closed. Probably need to build a utility room addon to handle the noise.

8. High temp units are NOT reversible. No cooling, even though not sure how that would work anyways without house ductwork.

Sort of stuck here.

I would have liked to add a geothermal unit into my existing system to run it 80% and coal/oil as needed.

Options:

1. Retrofit house with low temp heat (primarily infloor) and use non-high temp geothermal. Lower temps for existing boiler. Still no AC? Can geothermal system be "tapped" on the compressor side to send to indoor air units, like the mini splits? (this might be the ideal solution)

2. Use mini splits to get heat and cooling 80% Add solar to offset electricity usage. Use existing system as needed to boost or take over during coldest times

3. Something else?

Coal prices are skyrocketing (50% already here) and I won't be able to move coal and ashes much longer. My daughter helps with it now, but she's 21 and when finished with her degree (or sooner) and moves out...

Looking for long term solutions and ideas if anyone has some thoughts?

 
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Post by Retro_Origin » Sun. Jul. 10, 2022 8:59 pm

CoalisCoolxWarm wrote:
Sun. Jul. 10, 2022 10:52 am
Looking for long term solutions and ideas if anyone has some thoughts?
McGiever wrote:
Sat. Jul. 09, 2022 8:21 pm
Can always add lots of “staple up” PEX and aluminum plates. This method uses lower temperature hydronic.
This has been my summer project. I know a friend who using radiant to heat his whole house with a 40,000 BTU (maybe 60,000?) propane hot water heater. Only one floor and he said as long as it stays above 15deg outside it's plenty comfortable. It's a viable solution to maintain the efficiency of a hydronic system without the surrender to a full blown sized (non coal) boiler. Plus since you're circulating <145 deg water (in most cases) your boiler doesn't have to run as hot. I've yet to see what the actual numerical benefits are, but depending on your floor plan and material this might be a reasonable solution.

I'm not fully sold on the geothermal concept yet. One friend of mine loves it, but his house is only a few years old, and he has solar panels. My wife's cousin bought a house retro-fitted with it and said his average electric bill is $300 yr round, and I'm SURE they're not paying city price for electric, because they live in the sticks near my outlaws. He suggests it's a waste because of all the pumping. But I've not looked at actual numbers, it certainly sounds like "free" 50-55 degree temp water is a bonus.

 
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Post by CapeCoaler » Mon. Jul. 11, 2022 12:58 am

Check this system out...
Doing it here primarily for the dehumidify and AC...
But heat will do fine for shoulder months...
Low surge for use with solar systems...
https://www.chiltrix.com/small-chiller-home.html


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