Geothermal retrofit for hydronic baseboards

 
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Rob R.
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Post by Rob R. » Tue. Jul. 12, 2022 7:32 am

CoalisCoolxWarm wrote:
Sun. Jul. 10, 2022 10:52 am

6. My KA6 is 120k BTU output. Using it as a guideline, I'd need about 10 tons. Probably be less than that, depends how much I want to heat the basement. I'll need help on this. We are about 1500 sqft with 2 floors, plus full basement.
Your heating load should not be anywhere close to 120K BTU/hr. If it is, you need to tighten up the house before considering moving away from coal. It is possible to calculate the heat loss of a home based on fuel consumption records.

https://hydronicshub.com/heat-loss-calculation-on ... eplacement

What is the heating design temperature in your area?

 
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Post by CoalisCoolxWarm » Tue. Jul. 12, 2022 10:04 am

Well Son of a gun...

It's been a while since I did the original heatload on the house and not sure where it is right now. I got 120,000 from the net of the boiler.

We used about 4.5tn last year (I think), including DHW

Calculations using your link...

4.5 tn x 25,000,000 BTU/tn x .80 AFUE = 90,000,000 BTUs

90,000,000 BTUs / 4279 HDD (using 0F as design temp) /24 hrs x 72 deltaT = 63,099 BTUs heat loss

or

3000 sqft (basement not heated except boiler standby loss last year) x 20 BTU/sqft = 60,000 BTUs heat loss

I'll be heating about 1/2 basement to full conditioned temp for office this year, so add 25% = 78,874 BTUs for 2022-2023

The good news:

Not all areas will be heated to the full 72F all the time.

Although the square footage we will be insulating will be 10-20%, it will complete the upstairs and seal the envelope. We are also considering adding blow in insulation for the attic since all the ceilings will now be done.

The key basement area walls will be very well insulated. 2 walls are below ground and just block, but they will be separated by walls and a door. The floor is yet undecided (ref my other posts about infloor heating, retrofitting, geothermal heat pump, etc)

So it looks like about 80k required, plus a little cushion for the coldest days. So add what? Maybe 10k?

That would mean 90k heat source requirement, right?
you need to tighten up the house
Working on it ;)

 
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Post by McGiever » Tue. Jul. 12, 2022 1:43 pm

Radiant masses heat loads are not critical for worst case low temperature weather due to time duration of the low temperature event. Very slow swings!!

Not to muddy the waters too much but “in-slab” or any other “high mass” radiant strata has very forgiving rise and falls in temperatures. In other words you may have a deficit in output without feeling the effects. And furthermore if one is to anticipate or foresees upcoming temperatures falling then temperature in mass could be pre-charge a degree higher ahead of time.

Never wait until you’re cold to start heating the mass…it is slow to heat the same as in slow to cool.

 
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Post by CoalisCoolxWarm » Tue. Jul. 12, 2022 6:48 pm

Very true!

I call my inlaws when really cold weather is coming. Tell them to set their TStat up a few degrees and put it on hold instead of kicking down at night.

A few $$ makes a big difference in comfort.

I have not surrendered the in-slab idea yet. I would be pouring on top if I had more head room in the basement.

As is, I would have to dig it up and either pour the same slab with tubing in it, or dig down a little and get more head room.

That's a big job, even resulting in new stairs, but might be worth it. The back half of basement is considerably higher than the front. Only one doorway between them, so not drastic, but it really is the best solution because I can put Foamular 250 under it and even insulate the perimeters as any studded walls would be non-load bearing.

It's a matter of effort and money. If I am going to do it, I want to be REALLY SURE about it.

If I do it, I would start converting the rest of the floors to infloor heating as well.

Then enjoy the (hopefully) more efficient heating with coal until/if we decide to change over to something else part time or full time.

I appreciate all the responses so far. It's a big, big deal for us, so trying to get whatever info I can before making a decision.


 
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Post by CoalisCoolxWarm » Sun. Jul. 17, 2022 5:09 pm

Starting to narrow down the options.

I am going to get labor and cost estimates to take 2/3 of the back basement floor down 6 inches, put in appropriate drains, add drain for new sink, level and put down 2" Foamular 250 (high compression strength), then thick plastic, rebar with plastic stands, PEX oxygen barrier tubing, and pour new 4" slab to match up to the old section of slab.

Insulate around the perimeter and lesser insulation between new and old slab.

Should I add copper pipe for slab sensor sensing? What is anyone else using?

For the slab above, what diameter PEX should I use?

I am guessing rebar instead of fiberglass...it would affect the conductivity and performance of the concrete slab, right?

 
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Post by McGiever » Sun. Jul. 17, 2022 6:09 pm

There are books with all that... :)

 
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CoalisCoolxWarm
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Post by CoalisCoolxWarm » Sun. Jul. 17, 2022 7:20 pm

McGiever wrote:
Sun. Jul. 17, 2022 6:09 pm
There are books with all that... :)
There you go assuming again. As if I can read... Lol

 
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Post by coalfan » Sun. Jul. 17, 2022 7:42 pm

this a coal site not all the bullshit this worthlees gov has pushed us to !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


 
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Post by Retro_Origin » Sun. Jul. 17, 2022 9:12 pm

CoalisCoolxWarm wrote:
Sun. Jul. 17, 2022 5:09 pm
Starting to narrow down the options.

I am going to get labor and cost estimates to take 2/3 of the back basement floor down 6 inches, put in appropriate drains, add drain for new sink, level and put down 2" Foamular 250 (high compression strength), then thick plastic, rebar with plastic stands, PEX oxygen barrier tubing, and pour new 4" slab to match up to the old section of slab.

Insulate around the perimeter and lesser insulation between new and old slab.

Should I add copper pipe for slab sensor sensing? What is anyone else using?

For the slab above, what diameter PEX should I use?

I am guessing rebar instead of fiberglass...it would affect the conductivity and performance of the concrete slab, right?
I'm a newbie. A super newbie. A mega newbie. A newbie of all newbies. Take that into consideration as you continue to read:
Dan holohan's radiant heating book is very good. His pumping away book gives great diagrams and info as well.

My friend uses this slab sensor controller https://www.supplyhouse.com/Azel-Technologies-DST ... gle-Output with great success at his house, has a pulse feature to pulse the circulator once the temperature approaches the set point to prevent overshoot.
1/2 oxybarrier pex seems to be sufficient for most people on staple up systems. If you are using concrete it will be more forgiving to conduction than wood. It conducts extremely well. Although that makes the ends of your slab more susceptible to losing heat to the great outdoors than a wood floor. Insulation underneath is also key.

 
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Post by CapeCoaler » Mon. Jul. 18, 2022 2:22 pm

They make a fiberglass rebar...
No more rust spalling...
https://www.owenscorning.com/en-us/composites/pro ... lass-rebar

 
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Post by franpipeman » Sat. Jul. 23, 2022 8:16 am

creat a perimeter thermal break that is some insulation between the slab and outdoor walls

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