new furnace and central air, and so it goes

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KingCoal
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Location: Elkhart county, IN.
Hand Fed Coal Stove: 1 comforter stove works all iron coal box stove, seventies.
Baseburners & Antiques: 2014 DTS C17 Base Burner, GW #6, GW 113 formerly Sir Williams, maybe others at Pauliewog’s I’ve forgotten about
Coal Size/Type: Nut Anth.
Other Heating: none

Post by KingCoal » Wed. Jun. 03, 2020 8:37 pm

So...........getting ready to install a furnace and air system. hasn't been one here for 20 yrs but wanted to do it before i retire next year.

had a heat loss survey done, the results were pretty much what i expected but threw the guy that ran it for a loop. seems we loose a total of 135,000 BTUH in the winter in this uninsulated bucket. no problem for FRANK running 24/7, it's still 70* in here even at -20 OAT so who cares.

the bigger issue is that if we go ahead without insulating it will take 11 tons to cool this thing in the summer. hasn't been a problem i have never lived in an air conditioned house and don't like it much in motels either but i'm not paying for that or a split zone heat system.

getting the insulation done via injection foam, will have R18 sidewalls and R14 joist ends and inside of foundation to under grade. 3 days of work starting 6-9.

so with that done i will be transferring about 54,000 BTUH and need just 4 tons of air conditioning. that's in the low average for a 2 story with 1360 total SF of conditioned space in this area.

second Soooooooooooo, i guess i may be looking for a 12" pot globe style base burner or some other little stove to heat with cause the furnace is just in case we "have" to be away sometime ( both of our remaining parents are 90+ ) and / or so it's there if we decide to down size.

the rest of this years projects are water softener, tear out the hard pipe and install pex thru out and a new water heater, 11 more replacement windows on the sun porch and of course the 3 entry doors replaced.

:what: good thing i had this planned and don't need to look for the money. :lol: :clap:


 
Holdencoal
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Post by Holdencoal » Wed. Jun. 03, 2020 8:45 pm

What about the ceiling insulation amount? Minimum I would want is R39

 
KingCoal
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Posts: 4837
Joined: Wed. Apr. 03, 2013 1:24 pm
Location: Elkhart county, IN.
Hand Fed Coal Stove: 1 comforter stove works all iron coal box stove, seventies.
Baseburners & Antiques: 2014 DTS C17 Base Burner, GW #6, GW 113 formerly Sir Williams, maybe others at Pauliewog’s I’ve forgotten about
Coal Size/Type: Nut Anth.
Other Heating: none

Post by KingCoal » Thu. Jun. 04, 2020 5:47 am

Since I had all the knob and tube wiring removed in January I can take are of the attic insulation on my own

These four square houses were very popular back in the 20’s when it was built. Being uninsulated and having wide soffits keeps the roof clear of snow and no ice on the eaves or gutters. You don’t hear of roof problems on these unless branch’s fall on them. probably add some up there this year and see how it goes and add or modify later

 
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mntbugy
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Coal Size/Type: stove and nut and some bit
Other Heating: Propain

Post by mntbugy » Thu. Jun. 04, 2020 8:51 am

Nice globe-y in Texas. One in Nova Scotia. Two more that will hurt your wallet. Missed two Yesterday, CHEAP.

 
Holdencoal
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Post by Holdencoal » Thu. Jun. 04, 2020 8:57 am

Here is a great link for insulation.

IMO if the company will air seal the attic for you it will be really good money spent. Then I would use rock wool batts in the attic. Fiberglass is not the best choice today in any attic, but home builders need to make profits so they still use it because it’s cheap. Fiberglass allows way to much air movement. Your heat loss will greatly improve from rockwool if you are spray foaming the walls.



https://www.energy.gov/sites/prod/files/guide_to_ ... lation.pdf

 
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McGiever
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Hand Fed Coal Stove: Warm Morning 414A
Coal Size/Type: PEA,NUT,STOVE /ANTHRACITE
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Post by McGiever » Thu. Jun. 04, 2020 8:39 pm

True, and Canada has known this for a.long time....we might catch on eventually.

 
cabinover
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Post by cabinover » Fri. Jun. 05, 2020 5:31 am

So you guys are saying to foam the top side of your ceiling to stop air infiltration then rockwool over that for the best heat savings?


 
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lsayre
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Post by lsayre » Fri. Jun. 05, 2020 5:58 am

I seriously question your heat loss studies derived need for heat, because I seriously question Frank's ability to adequately satisfy anything close to such a high demand for heat.

Frank would need to be burning on the order of 15.7 lbs. of anthracite per hour, or 377 lbs. per day to meet such a heat demand.

When Frank has kept your house warm on the coldest days you have ever experienced, how much coal was Frank burning? If Frank is meeting the need, that is your homes present state heat demand (heat loss).

 
KingCoal
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Posts: 4837
Joined: Wed. Apr. 03, 2013 1:24 pm
Location: Elkhart county, IN.
Hand Fed Coal Stove: 1 comforter stove works all iron coal box stove, seventies.
Baseburners & Antiques: 2014 DTS C17 Base Burner, GW #6, GW 113 formerly Sir Williams, maybe others at Pauliewog’s I’ve forgotten about
Coal Size/Type: Nut Anth.
Other Heating: none

Post by KingCoal » Fri. Jun. 05, 2020 6:11 am

Bingo thanks Larry

The primary issue here is that I will never be able to sell this house without insulation and a modern heat system so I’m doing that

All I know for sure is that there is no insulation in this house and FRANK keeps it 70 down stairs and 72-74 up no matter what

I’ll get different survey done in a couple weeks and go from there for furnace selection

Thanks
steve

 
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lsayre
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Post by lsayre » Fri. Jun. 05, 2020 6:38 am

KingCoal wrote:
Fri. Jun. 05, 2020 6:11 am
Bingo thanks Larry

The primary issue here is that I will never be able to sell this house without insulation and a modern heat system so I’m doing that

All I know for sure is that there is no insulation in this house and FRANK keeps it 70 down stairs and 72-74 up no matter what

I’ll get different survey done in a couple weeks and go from there for furnace selection

Thanks
steve
I'd say that Frank has been doing your heat loss survey. Pay zero attention to Frank's BTUH rating, which is meaningless and totally irrelevant. Pay 100% attention to the amount of fuel Frank is burning on the very coldest of days. And on first approximation, assume 12,275 BTU's per pound for typical anthracite, and 70% efficiency for Frank.

 
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Rob R.
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Post by Rob R. » Fri. Jun. 05, 2020 7:22 am

KingCoal wrote:
Thu. Jun. 04, 2020 5:47 am
Since I had all the knob and tube wiring removed in January I can take are of the attic insulation on my own

These four square houses were very popular back in the 20’s when it was built. Being uninsulated and having wide soffits keeps the roof clear of snow and no ice on the eaves or gutters. You don’t hear of roof problems on these unless branch’s fall on them. probably add some up there this year and see how it goes and add or modify later
Even blown in cellulose would be a huge improvement compared to no insulation. Foam would do the best job at air sealing, but may require the use of some kind of air exchange system. Roughly 50% of a home's heat loss is due to air leakage into the attic. Considering how much you are spending to insulate the rest of the house, I think you would get a much better return on your $$ if the attic was insulated as well.

 
Holdencoal
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Post by Holdencoal » Fri. Jun. 05, 2020 7:33 am

What are they using for a heat loss calculator? I hope its at least Manual J and D and not a best guess.

 
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lsayre
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Coal Size/Type: Lehigh Anthracite Pea
Other Heating: Resistance Boiler (13.5 KW), ComfortMax 75

Post by lsayre » Fri. Jun. 05, 2020 7:43 am

Holdencoal wrote:
Fri. Jun. 05, 2020 7:33 am
What are they using for a heat loss calculator? I hope its at least Manual J and D and not a best guess.
Even for 'Manual J' it is ultimately a case of garbage in, garbage out. That's why for this case I place my faith in Frank and in Steve's testimony that even on the coldest days Frank has kept the house comfortably warm.

An old ballpark rule of thumb for typically insulated all-electric (resistance) heated homes (in my area, which is not all that different from Steve's) was 10 Watts per hour per Sq-Ft. I believe I recall where Steve once stated that his home has on the order of 900 Sq-Ft. being heated.

10 Watts/Hr. x 900 Sq-Ft. x 3.412 BTU/Watt = 30,708 BTUH (as output).

That is a far cry from 135,000 BTUH (as output).
Last edited by lsayre on Fri. Jun. 05, 2020 8:02 am, edited 1 time in total.

 
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lsayre
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Stoker Coal Boiler: AHS S130 Coal Gun
Coal Size/Type: Lehigh Anthracite Pea
Other Heating: Resistance Boiler (13.5 KW), ComfortMax 75

Post by lsayre » Fri. Jun. 05, 2020 7:55 am

30,708 BTUH for coal would be roughly:

30,708 / 0.70 / 12,275 = 3.574 Lbs./Hr.

3.574 x 24 ~= 86 Lbs. per day

Is Frank burning about 86 pounds per day on the coldest couple days of the year?

 
Holdencoal
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Post by Holdencoal » Fri. Jun. 05, 2020 7:57 am

Larry, I Agree 110% with you. I see a lot of guys over size boilers and AC units just on how the wallet is doing and what supply house has the best deal. What’s an extra ton :baby: .

Homes in northern Worcester were build in the 70-80’s and most of the time with electric ceiling (Radiant) heat between two layers of drywall.


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