Setting Up My Cogeneration Unit

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NoSmoke
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Post by NoSmoke » Mon. Feb. 03, 2020 11:38 am

Well I finally got all the main elements of my cogeneration plant together today. I got the wood/coal boiler in position a few weeks ago, but today I got the diesel engine for the generator into place.

I had a few spare engines kicking around, but ultimately decided I was going to go with an old reefer engine off a insulated tractor trailer that I have kicking around. I have a Hercules's 6 cylinder, just rebuilt, and sitting in an engine stand with a hand clutch and everything on it, but it has about 100 horsepower more than what I need. I figured no need to feed fuel to an engine if I do not need too, so while it will be more work to get going, the 35 HP reefer engine will be about right for the 83 amp/20 KW generator it is being mated too.

What a bear to get into position though because I had to slide it up an inclined ramp/walkway about 25 feet and I did not have my favorite laborer here...Katie. But by using pipes, blocking, and pry bars, I was able to work it slowly up the ramp by rolling it along the pipes, and into position by myself. A refer unit would not seem to be too big looking at it bolted to the front of a tractor trailer, but working the unit up a ramp makes a person realize it is bigger and heavier than they first think. I would move it six inches, and it would roll back just as many. Finally I got it into position after about an hour of work though.

On Saturday I was able to take a 275 gallon oil tank that I also had kicking around, and get that into the new generator room as well. I managed to get that all painted up, so it looks good now. I still got to outfit it with fill pipe, whistle, tank gauge, and then run the fuel line to the reefer engine. I think I will just plumb the injectors fuel lube line back to the filter housing instead of returning to the tank.

Once that is done, the next step is to get the compressor off the back of it, get the engine unseized, and then start getting the start-circuit figured out. Once it is up and running, then I will marry my generator too it, and then finally plumb the coolant lines into the wood/coal boiler that is in position beside it now.

After that it is just a matter of getting the boiler situated with a new chimney, then wiring it to the controls, then some plumbing of course, and then the final step will be to run lines to the radiant floor heat of the house.

All this will net me choices:

Electrical Needs:

On Grid
Off Grid

Domestic Heat:

Electricity
Propane
Coal
Firewood
#2 Fuel Oil
Wood pellets


 
franco b
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Post by franco b » Mon. Feb. 03, 2020 8:55 pm

Running an engine has as waste either power or heat, depending on the function desired. Cogeneration is the effort to harvest that waste.

The problem as I see it is that it has to be run steadily, which in a factory is fine , but much less so in a home.

I know you have addressed that problem and would very much like to hear your thoughts.

 
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hotblast1357
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Post by hotblast1357 » Tue. Feb. 04, 2020 7:11 am

I’ve always wondered, is there any type of formula for figuring out the water btu rating of a engine?

Are you go to have two thermostats? One that puts water to the house and one to the radiator of the engine? My thought is your house needs won’t always be enough to keep the engine at operating temp, so how do you transfer over to the radiator to keep the engine from over heating?

 
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Post by coaledfeat » Tue. Feb. 04, 2020 9:23 am

Before I retired from RPI in Troy NY, there was a Vegawatt unit at the large dinning hall. It used fryer oil and generated hot water and electric. I remember it ran continuously so as to preheat the oil. Lots to read on the net! Keep us posted Gary.

 
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Post by KingCoal » Tue. Feb. 04, 2020 3:11 pm

well NS, I keep mentioning you in the midst of the throne and have been wondering when you'd pop up again.

neat to see that you are still actively driving life forward.

great project, will be watching for the updates and pics.

steve

 
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Post by scalabro » Tue. Feb. 04, 2020 6:12 pm

Do you attempt to recover a portion of the diesels exhaust heat?

Or, it’s turbocharged and that reclaims it?

I would think a 35 hp diesel would produce very little coolant heat exchange potential.

 
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Post by hotblast1357 » Tue. Feb. 04, 2020 7:45 pm

35 hp will run around 17,500 KW if ran at max output getting 35hp to the generator, the equation is 2hp per KW.

I used it when I setup my generator, I run a 25,000 watt PTO generator off my 35 hp turbo charged tractor, I put a 60 watt breaker in my panel so to not over load my generator cuz the tractor can’t do it all.


 
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Post by BigBarney » Tue. Feb. 04, 2020 8:40 pm

35hp is equal to 26 KW ...

But that is output HP not the amount of the fuel inputs energy....

http://www.idc-online.com/technical_references/pd ... epower.pdf

"It is a known fact that a piston engine does a rather inefficient job of converting
fuel energy into power. The rule of thumb approximation is that nearly 1/3 of the
fuel energy goes out the exhaust pipe as lost heat, approximately 1/3 of the fuel
energy is lost to the cooling system (coolant, oil and surrounding airflow), leaving
roughly 1/3 of the energy (best case) available for power output. Some of that
power is lost to making the pistons go up and down, driving accessories (oil pump,
coolant pump, alternator, vacuum pump, hydraulic pump, etc.), losses from
pumping air through the engine, thrashing the oil in the crankcase, and friction in
various forms."

In the above example you need over 1000HP to get 300HP out ,and that is at

constant full speed at lower speeds you efficiency is even worse.

Most gas engines are ~20-25% efficient so the majority of the fuel the engine burns

goes out as waste . It is very hard to recover much more then a small % of this be-

cause costs become prohibitive especially for the low level heat .

BigBarney

 
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hotblast1357
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Post by hotblast1357 » Tue. Feb. 04, 2020 9:06 pm

Barney that post has nothing to do with this thread.

I’m quite supprised you didn’t suggest an electric motor to drive the generator..

 
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Post by NoSmoke » Wed. Feb. 05, 2020 6:55 am

Mechanical energy wise, I have plenty of power.

1 HP=750 watts, so I need 27 HP to power my 20,000 watt generator at full capacity.

But do not get mislead as most people do; the limiting factor of a generator is often the AMPS and not the Wattage, yet everything is wrongly rated in wattage for generators. That is why I always state I have an 83 amp/20 KW generator...83 amps is easy to consume...

From what I have read, about 75% of an engines energy is produced as heat. From that we can deduce some simple math. If a 35 HP engine consumes 3/4 of a gallon of fuel per hour, and 75% of that energy is heat, then...

1 gallon of #2 Diesel =131,000 BTU's
3/4 of a gallon=98,000 btu's
Total heat from running engine for 1 hour=73,000 BTU's
Total heat for 24 hours=1.7 million btus
Total heats needed per day to heat my home =700,000 btus

Engine would produce 242% of my heating needs

 
NoSmoke
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Post by NoSmoke » Wed. Feb. 05, 2020 7:14 am

franco b wrote:
Mon. Feb. 03, 2020 8:55 pm
Running an engine has as waste either power or heat, depending on the function desired. Cogeneration is the effort to harvest that waste.

The problem as I see it is that it has to be run steadily, which in a factory is fine , but much less so in a home.

I know you have addressed that problem and would very much like to hear your thoughts.
Honestly, I think this is incalculable...

I say that because there are too many variables. Electrical needs are 24/7, and during the heating season, so is the need for domestic heat, but the volume of those two needs are highly variable. The amount of electricity my home consumes at 1 AM is vastly different than what it needs at 5 PM. And along the same lines, the amount of heat my house needs at 1 AM is vastly different than what it needs at 1 PM.

But if my engine is producing 242% of my heating needs, it just means it does not need to run 24 hours a day. For domestic heat, I could run my engine for only 10 hours and meet 100% of my heating needs because that heat could be stored in my concrete slab. That would obviously mean I would not meet my homes 24 hour insatiable appetite for electricity, BUT I could pull that power from the grid during generator-down times.

In many ways that makes more sense. Operate the gen-set during the highest electrical demands of the day, say 5 hours during the morning, and five hours in the evening, get my required heat somewhat dispersed throughout the day, and the majority of my consumed electricity.

It really depends on the homeowner. If they are a "greeny" and locked into making all their power and heating needs for themselves, then what I suggest falls very short. But if a homeowner wants to be the most efficient, they could cycle the engine to get the most out of it. Myself, I am not doing this for either of those two reasons: for me having the ABILITY to be off-grid, and produce my own heat, is my motivation.

(truncated post with more to come)

 
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Post by freetown fred » Wed. Feb. 05, 2020 7:17 am

N, you are NEVER going to be totally off grid as I was in Vt. for years. Wish you'd stop using the term. It confuses people--at least myself! Just using the kero if proof positive of that. I tyhink ya been watchin to many reality shows--EX: Marty on that Alaska show--off grid??? WTF-he has an airplane, snow machines, etc.--that's not off grid in my world-- .>)
Last edited by freetown fred on Wed. Feb. 05, 2020 7:21 am, edited 1 time in total.

 
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Post by hotblast1357 » Wed. Feb. 05, 2020 7:20 am

Yes my generator is a 125 amp 25,000 watt 50,000 watt surge, most all data I’ve found while researching says 2hp per kw, but I also loose hp running through my pto, I probably only make 30 hp at the PTO.

My exact point with the btus from the engine, what are you going to do with all the extra heat???

You going to setup some type of automotive radiator as way to keep it at operating temp? Are you going to run it into a big storage tank?

I just think it’s going to be tricky, keeping the engine at a constant 160-200 degrees, while pulling heat from it with heat calls, then not having any heat calls for a period.

 
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Post by NoSmoke » Wed. Feb. 05, 2020 7:33 am

The uncalculatable part of the equation is, I have run the numbers, and running my own genset for electricity and heat 24 hours per day for the 150 day heating system would cost me about $1000 MORE in diesel fuel purchases, then what I would save on buying propane for domestic heat, and buying electricity off the grid. This was based on buying a $8200 genset (not homemade like my set-up) every 30,000 hour, the typical lifespan of a purchased genset.

But again, a person would not have to operate a genset 24/7 during the heating season...that can vary.

But my calculations were based on buying propane. I plan to hook my wood/coal boiler up in series with the genset, so firewood, and coal is going to be a lot less costly then buying propane for my domestic heat.

Equally, running a genset means it does not matter how much electricity I consume because for the most part, it has about the same cost. That means I could heat my house by electricity since I am making plenty of it. Considering the efficiency of heat-pumps, a person could dispense with plumbing in the engines coolant system to the houses domestic heat if they wished.

Do you see what I mean...really it is uncalculatable because being off-grid is almost its own type of lifestyle.

This is no different than heating a home. Some people put lots of windows in their home, in the right place to get passive solar gain. My house has less, and smaller windows and is super-insulated. Yet some people chose to live in drafty houses but have big outdoor boilers to make up for what the house is losing for heat. No one way is right or wrong; it is a choice the homeowner makes. The more conservative a person is by doing the boring things like adding insulation and efficient windows, the less btu's it will take to heat a home. How much a person is willing to devote their time to starting/stopping/maintaining their genset is going to make a huge difference on their overall expense.

As I type this: sometimes making a persons own power/heat makes sense, and sometimes pulling cheap power off the grid makes more sense.

But that could change...

 
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Post by NoSmoke » Wed. Feb. 05, 2020 7:44 am

hotblast1357 wrote:
Wed. Feb. 05, 2020 7:20 am
Yes my generator is a 125 amp 25,000 watt 50,000 watt surge, most all data I’ve found while researching says 2hp per kw, but I also loose hp running through my pto, I probably only make 30 hp at the PTO.

My exact point with the btus from the engine, what are you going to do with all the extra heat???

You going to setup some type of automotive radiator as way to keep it at operating temp? Are you going to run it into a big storage tank?

I just think it’s going to be tricky, keeping the engine at a constant 160-200 degrees, while pulling heat from it with heat calls, then not having any heat calls for a period.
The Amish do this very thing here, and their engines do not have radiators at all. Their "radiators" are their concrete slabs used as foundations for their home.

I realize what you are saying, but you also have to look at the situation. How could a 35 HP engine ever heat up 60 cubic yards of concrete that is in a 57 degree environment all the time? That much concrete is going to wick away the btu's that are produced.

But it depends on how a homeowner looks at the situation. If they look at it as they are producing their electrical needs, and the heat is a byproduct, then turn up the thermostats, dump all the heat into the slab while the engine is running, and open a window if the house gets too hot. What does it matter...it is free heat. That is what the Amish do here.

But it can go the other way too, a homeowner can look at it as a means to heat their house for the winter, and the electricity produced is just a byproduct, and cut down on their utility costs while they are heating their home.


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