Cogeneration

CapeCoaler
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Post By: CapeCoaler » Fri. Feb. 16, 2018 9:15 am

Sell the electric back to the grid...
What about the lister as the power...
They run forever...
run it on veggie oil and you can be green...


coalnewbie
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Post By: coalnewbie » Fri. Feb. 16, 2018 9:16 am

Well David... they are around again. They are fabulously expensive and when they go wrong only three people on the planet know how to fix them.

Here is but one example from Yanmar.

https://higherlogicdownload.s3.amazonaws.com/APGA ... Yanmar.pdf

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titleist1
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Post By: titleist1 » Fri. Feb. 16, 2018 9:26 am

David... wrote:
Fri. Feb. 16, 2018 8:58 am
Someone made a heatpump with a compressor driven by a NG or propane engine. The engine maintenance was only once per year. Waste heat was recovered to help heat the house. The system cycled on demand for heat. This was not home made, but I don't think it was in production long.

David
Thats how the refrigerator in my grandmothers house in Philly worked....NG driven compressor right in the kitchen. They didn't have CO monitors back then, the row home was probably drafty enough it didn't matter. :o

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BigBarney
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Post By: BigBarney » Fri. Feb. 16, 2018 11:20 am

These engines have a useful life of 8,000 - 12,000 hrs and this is not at maximum

output. They run at 3600RPM and their sweet spot in fuel economy is at about a

50% load so it puts out about 5 HP at that level . This info is the manufacturers

specs. They do make 1800RPM sets with a service life of 10,000 hrs but i believe

they are nat gas or propane. They usually produce about 50% heat energy and

~30% electrical , so you need a large heat demand year round to justify.


8760 hr per year and they have a 200hr maintenance schedule. Still can't find

fuel consumption at full output.


BigBarney

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David...
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Post By: David... » Fri. Feb. 16, 2018 11:26 am

No emissions control so if many are installed smog will be an issue.

coalnewbie
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Post By: coalnewbie » Fri. Feb. 16, 2018 11:51 am

Emission is not an issue for standing generators although tier 4 is built in. 1800RPM makes a profound difference. However, wear is still an issue. Also for me 3600RPM is an irritating buzzy noise. Many people have run my Lister CS/6s for a million hours but they are noisy and smoky.

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David...
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Post By: David... » Fri. Feb. 16, 2018 11:58 am

The haze in the picture is from one generator running in the distance. I think emissions will be a problem.

David
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BigBarney
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Post By: BigBarney » Fri. Feb. 16, 2018 12:11 pm

Natural gas makes the most sense , but only for emergency use, you still have

to contend with the ~20% efficiency of ICE engines. You need to run at one speed

to even get that efficient.

BigBarney


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Post By: rberq » Fri. Feb. 16, 2018 6:33 pm

coalnewbie wrote:
Fri. Feb. 16, 2018 3:07 am
The bottom line is that you take HO/diesel whatever and extract 75% of the energy as electric and heat.
That's what my oil-fired boiler does now -- extracts heat from fuel oil and sends it to cast iron radiators, at (very roughly speaking) that 75% efficiency level.

A unusually good diesel generator might run 40% to 45% efficient, and now you can add on complex and expensive components to get that remaining 30% waste heat into your house in usable form. Never mind that it will sound like some guy is just outside mowing your lawn 24/7 and stinking up the neighborhood with diesel fumes unless you add expensive emission controls (don't get 'em from VW ;) ).

You mentioned a comparison to solar electricity. Let's see the math, including purchase and maintenance and installation costs over, say, ten years... :?:

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Post By: coalnewbie » Fri. Feb. 16, 2018 7:13 pm

Solar, hmm, let's see. $50,000 cost, money at 10% that is $5000 a year. Utility grid connection costs. $200+ a month. Then a 50% chance that your need to replace the roof in the 10 years. Uninstall the solar, reroof and then reassemble. A roof around here lasts about 20-25 years. It's strictly a no brainer and I have not got into any real costs. No solar person that I know has made any money. Even the most optimistic say 7-10 year pay back and most are behind their optimistic projections. RB, dream on.

It may more realistic to do nothing. Yep, that I can accept. It may be fun to have a better generator backup.

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Post By: rberq » Fri. Feb. 16, 2018 8:20 pm

coalnewbie wrote:
Fri. Feb. 16, 2018 7:13 pm
No solar person that I know has made any money. Even the most optimistic say 7-10 year pay back and most are behind their optimistic projections.
7-10 year payback is very optimistic. There have been a few projects around here where people got together to finance large multi-household installations. The payback figures I saw were iffy. The latest shock which they didn't anticipate was towns assessing taxes on the installations -- made the numbers worse. But cost keeps coming down ...

Lots of battles around here on wind energy, too. I recently read that Texas, biggest oil producing state, is also the biggest electricity generator with wind turbines. Interesting.

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Post By: franco b » Fri. Feb. 16, 2018 9:17 pm

coalnewbie wrote:
Fri. Feb. 16, 2018 7:13 pm
It may more realistic to do nothing. Yep, that I can accept. It may be fun to have a better generator backup.
I thought that was your old family motto. I think it best to follow that ancient wisdom.

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Post By: coalnewbie » Fri. Feb. 16, 2018 10:24 pm

How can one argue with the eternal wisdom of a moderator.

Oh well, 60* next week and winter boredom may be coming to an end. I suppose I could fix the lawn mowers instead.

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Post By: coalnewbie » Sat. Feb. 17, 2018 8:10 am

Talked to Shawnee yesterday. Stuff ordered with 32 pole head. He agrees with my calculations. House will be on batteries 8PM to 6PM I never did listen.

Lister CS/6s will carry part of the load and offer redundancy with 32 pole heads.. 70* this week, time to get going before mowing season swamps me. Thank you for your input everyone. Self install MrCool DIY heat pumps on order. Thx Rob.

Give me the summer guys and I will share. First let's get these producing. 600RPM and last forever. Run on anything with a BTU... My favorite is used motor oil or soy oil from Miyugi.with a prefilter from hell.

Nil carborundum desperandum. Can anybody translate? Look at conventional wisdom and do something else - it always works.
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Post By: coaledsweat » Sat. Feb. 17, 2018 8:34 am

coalnewbie wrote:
Sat. Feb. 17, 2018 8:10 am
Nil carborundum desperandum. Can anybody translate? Look at conventional wisdom and do something else - it always works.
"Don't let the bastards wear you down."


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