Heating With Hydrogen

 
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Post by franco b » Thu. Oct. 19, 2017 8:10 pm

We know using electricity to run a heat pump is more efficient then using that electricity directly as resistance heat. Are there other ways to use electricity to heat a home?

This man uses electricity to separate water into hydrogen and oxygen. Would this method beat a heat pump for efficiency?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-B6f1MVwUps


 
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Post by top top » Fri. Oct. 20, 2017 9:19 am

I don't think so. What makes a heat pump efficient is you are scavenging heat from the air. Even ice cold air contains heat, all the way down to absolute zero which is about minus 460 degrees Fahrenheit. The electric is used to operate the system, not generate heat. If this guy's system could efficiently break down water into H & O it would already be in use everywhere, considering both gases could be sold. I only watched a couple minutes of the video, but his "proof" had no actual data. Heating one room with resistance heaters compared to this, without including basic info such as degree days and actual room temps, and room usage is useless.

A few people have built something similar on a vehicle and routed the hydrogen to the carb, and thought they saved gas, but they don't do it long term. And again, if it were that easy manufacturers would already be doing it. I often use an electrolysis tank to remove rust, and you can see the stream of gas from each electrode, but it doesn't appear to be that much, even using a 48 volt, 50 amp rectifier. Never tried to capture and measure the gases though. It also doesn't evap the water too quickly.

 
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Post by Lightning » Fri. Oct. 20, 2017 9:26 am

It seems like another case of getting more energy out than what is put in. It takes the same amount of energy to break the bond between the atoms as what is released putting them back together again.

 
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Post by franco b » Fri. Oct. 20, 2017 9:40 am

Lightning wrote:
Fri. Oct. 20, 2017 9:26 am
It seems like another case of getting more energy out than what is put in. It takes the same amount of energy to break the bond between the atoms as what is released putting them back together again.
That has to be true, but is it more efficient using the energy in this way than using it as resistance heating? Unlike a car or truck three quarters of the heat is not thrown away. Will 200 watts of electricity produce more heat this way, than if used in another way?

 
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Post by McGiever » Fri. Oct. 20, 2017 9:44 am

Would love to have a 'hydrogen stream' up in my coal boiler just for 'kicks'

 
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Post by scalabro » Fri. Oct. 20, 2017 1:29 pm

franco b wrote:
Thu. Oct. 19, 2017 8:10 pm
We know using electricity to run a heat pump is more efficient then using that electricity directly as resistance heat.
Electric resistance heat is 100% efficient, every penny spent is converted to heat.

https://energy.gov/energysaver/electric-resistance-heating

 
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Post by Lightning » Fri. Oct. 20, 2017 1:43 pm

1 kilowatt produces 3412 BTUs of resistance heat. The million dollar question is, can that same kilowatt produce enough hydrogen thru electrolysis to burn and produce at least 3412 BTUs.

Without even doing any math first, I'm gonna say absolutely not and likely not even close.


 
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Post by davidmcbeth3 » Fri. Oct. 20, 2017 2:41 pm

I heat with methane.

You don't want to know the source !

Image

 
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Post by Lightning » Fri. Oct. 20, 2017 3:01 pm

Commercially available electrolysis systems require about 50 kilowatt hours of power to produce 1 kg of H2 and 8 kg of O2 from 9 kg of water.

So, with 1 kWh of power we’d get 1/50 of that, which would be 20 grams of H2 and 160 grams of O2.
1 pound =
453.592 grams

Hydrogen has more energy per unit mass than other fuels (61,100 BTUs per pound)

So 20 grams of hydrogen produces 2691

1 Kw resistance 3412 BTUs

1 Kw to produce 20 grams of hydrogen produces 2691 BTUs

There's always a loss when converting forms of energy.

 
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Post by franco b » Fri. Oct. 20, 2017 3:36 pm

Lightning wrote:
Fri. Oct. 20, 2017 3:01 pm
Commercially available electrolysis systems require about 50 kilowatt hours of power to produce 1 kg of H2 and 8 kg of O2 from 9 kg of water.

So, with 1 kWh of power we’d get 1/50 of that, which would be 20 grams of H2 and 160 grams of O2.


1 pound =
453.592 grams

Hydrogen has more energy per unit mass than other fuels (61,100 BTUs per pound)

So 20 grams of hydrogen produces 2691

1 Kw resistance 3412 BTUs

1 Kw to produce 20 grams of hydrogen produces 2691 BTUs

There's always a loss when converting forms of energy.
Figures seem strange since there are twice as many H atoms as O. H2O. I wonder how to weigh H, since it is lighter than air.

 
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Post by davidmcbeth3 » Fri. Oct. 20, 2017 3:50 pm

franco b wrote:
Fri. Oct. 20, 2017 3:36 pm

Figures seem strange since there are twice as many H atoms as O. H2O. I wonder how to weigh H, since it is lighter than air.
Upside down scale of course !

Could use an inertial scale (much thinner straps than this one)

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Post by Lightning » Fri. Oct. 20, 2017 3:55 pm

Grams is a measurement of mass. It can be measured thru the volume of produced gas. A volume of gas has the same number of molecules at a particular pressure no matter what the gas is. I forget the name of that law lol. Then they can multiply molecules × atomic weight to eventually get mass.

The same way we figured out how a ton of coal produces an obscene amount of carbon dioxide lol. Wasn't it like three tons or something?
Last edited by Lightning on Fri. Oct. 20, 2017 4:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.

 
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Post by rberq » Fri. Oct. 20, 2017 3:59 pm

franco b wrote:
Fri. Oct. 20, 2017 3:36 pm
I wonder how to weigh H, since it is lighter than air.
The same way I weigh my cat? Stand on the bathroom scale all by yourself, record your weight, then have somebody hand you a cat or a party balloon and see how much you weigh -- more with the cat, less with the balloon.

No, I guess not. You would be indirectly weighing (I think???) the air displaced by the balloon???

Maybe take the scale and the balloon to the moon, where there IS no air, and repeat the experiment. Adjust for different gravity on the moon. Leave the cat at home because he will probably try to get his claws into the balloon.

Or just trust the physics textbook.

 
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Post by franco b » Fri. Oct. 20, 2017 4:08 pm

davidmcbeth3 wrote:
Fri. Oct. 20, 2017 3:50 pm
franco b wrote:
Fri. Oct. 20, 2017 3:36 pm

Figures seem strange since there are twice as many H atoms as O. H2O. I wonder how to weigh H, since it is lighter than air.
Upside down scale of course !

Could use an inertial scale (much thinner straps than this one)

Image
Cubic feet would be much simpler and practical. 324 BTU per cubic foot. Then how many cubic feet can be produced with 1 KW?

There is also the design of the electrolysis unit. Experimenters seem to prefer what is called dry cell as being more efficient, which is what the man in the video was using.

 
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Post by davidmcbeth3 » Fri. Oct. 20, 2017 4:10 pm

Lightning wrote:
Fri. Oct. 20, 2017 3:55 pm
Grams is a measurement of mass. It can be measured thru the volume of produced gas. A volume of gas has the same number of molecules at a particular pressure no matter what the gas is. I forget the name of that law lol.
The Gas Law?

PVT=PVT (left is condition 1, right is condition 2)

At isothermal conditions, becomes VP=VP

also

PV=nRT

I got a million of them

In my brain !

7 years of college down the drain? I don't think so--paid off right here.

My wifey says I was full of hot air...so I learned all I could about gases.


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