Heating With Hydrogen

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davidmcbeth3
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Post Fri. Oct. 20, 2017 4:13 pm

rberq wrote:
Fri. Oct. 20, 2017 3:59 pm
<snip>

Or just trust the physics textbook.
Textbooks usually get their info from the Handbook on Physics and Chemistry.

This handbook is somewhat like wikipedia tho ... although data is examined, don't expect it to be a perfect reference.

Otherwise, why do they issue out a new one every year?

I have found a few values off. Eh, that's life.

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davidmcbeth3
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Post Fri. Oct. 20, 2017 4:20 pm

rberq wrote:
Fri. Oct. 20, 2017 3:59 pm
franco b wrote:
Fri. Oct. 20, 2017 3:36 pm
I wonder how to weigh H, since it is lighter than air.
The same way I weigh my cat? Stand on the bathroom scale all by yourself, record your weight, then have somebody hand you a cat or a party balloon and see how much you weigh -- more with the cat, less with the balloon.

No, I guess not. You would be indirectly weighing (I think???) the air displaced by the balloon???

Maybe take the scale and the balloon to the moon, where there IS no air, and repeat the experiment. Adjust for different gravity on the moon. Leave the cat at home because he will probably try to get his claws into the balloon.

Or just trust the physics textbook.
Mass and weight are not the same thing. Weight = mass * acceleration. The acceleration of gravity when on Earth (but this is not constant on the surface...it varies based upon where you are). So when I am asked what I "weigh" I demand that they provide the acceleration.

Watch the gov't-man get all pissed off when you do this. Classic.

That's also how I weigh my cat...then subtract out my weight when the cat jumps off and the blood on the floor from when the cat scratches me must also be accounted for.

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lsayre
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Post Fri. Oct. 20, 2017 6:56 pm

It always takes more energy input to split hydrogen atoms free from water molecules than the hydrogen itself contains, so hydrogen fuel cells are energy wasters.

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Lightning
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Post Fri. Oct. 20, 2017 9:38 pm

franco b wrote:
Fri. Oct. 20, 2017 3:36 pm
Figures seem strange since there are twice as many H atoms as O. H2O. I wonder how to weigh H, since it is lighter than air.
If you are referring to the mass produced it's because oxygen has an atomic weight of 16 and hydrogen 1. Therefore when you split H2O you have a ratio of 8 to 1 in terms of mass between hydrogen and oxygen.

As far as the dry cell is concerned, I don't know lol, but from what I gather it's still doing the same thing as electrolysis, supposedly a little more efficiently. I couldn't find any figures for it, but just by laws of thermodynamics it couldn't be less than BTUs produced by burning hydrogen.


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lsayre
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Post Fri. Oct. 20, 2017 9:42 pm

All batteries are energy wasters, and a fuel cell is merely a battery. It always takes more energy to charge a battery than can be usefully retrieved from the battery to accomplish work.

rberq
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Post Sat. Oct. 21, 2017 8:29 am

lsayre wrote:
Fri. Oct. 20, 2017 9:42 pm
All batteries are energy wasters, and a fuel cell is merely a battery. It always takes more energy to charge a battery than can be usefully retrieved from the battery to accomplish work.
I hate to split hairs (actually, I love it :lol: ), but a battery is not "wasting" energy, it is storing part of it in a package from which it can later be retrieved. The same is true of the gasoline I put in my car -- extracting and refining and transporting the gasoline takes more energy than my car will retrieve from it. Indirectly I am USING all of the energy from beginning to end of the process, but that's not the same as wasting it. It's just part of the cost of moving my ass from here to the supermarket and back.

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lsayre
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Post Sat. Oct. 21, 2017 8:59 am

rberq wrote:
Sat. Oct. 21, 2017 8:29 am
I hate to split hairs (actually, I love it :lol: ), but a battery is not "wasting" energy, it is storing part of it in a package from which it can later be retrieved. The same is true of the gasoline I put in my car -- extracting and refining and transporting the gasoline takes more energy than my car will retrieve from it.
I'm confident that the input energy required to retrieve, process and deliver fossil fuels to market does not exceed the energy that will later be released by those fossil fuels.

NoSmoke
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Post Sun. Oct. 22, 2017 7:04 am

i looked into something similar when I was thinking about using the wind power on this hill to directly heat my home by heating water. I went down some rabbit paths, but water cavatation is very similar to this, and with just as much outlandish claims. In that case they say an electric motor, powering an cavitation pump, produces more energy then what it consumes.

That is easy to disprove. The discharge port should be able to pump the steam back into a turbine powering the cavitation pump once the cavitation pump was spun high enough to produce steam. I am highly doubtful that would happen, a perpetual motion machine.

As a Christian I have to go back to the bible and check claims against what God has said, and in this case we have to go way back to the Garden of Eden where God cursed man by "having to work by the sweat of his brow". A perpetual motion machine of any variety scoffs at this, and I know none in working existence today, just theory.

I think it might be worth it to try to rig up a cavitation pump that is wind driven to say heat domestic hot water or something. The cost would be low, the cool factor high, and the return on investment would be decent...assuming it worked. But it would be supplementary in nature and not done to compete with fossil fuels for primary domestic hot water.


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Post Sun. Oct. 22, 2017 1:59 pm

In theory you can do what the hydro stations do...
Pump water uphill to a storage pond...
when you have excess power...
then let it return to the lower pond when you are short power...
Not 100% efficient but better than just dumping the excess...
The storage of excess energy has always been the design flaw...
The best I have seen is a flywheel spinning in a almost pure vacuum...
With that you can make a package as small or large as you need...
Designed on daily energy input and energy drawdowns...

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Post Sun. Oct. 22, 2017 6:42 pm

A modern statement of Avogadro's law is: Avogadro's law states that, "equal volumes of all gases, at the same temperature and pressure, have the same number of molecules". For a given mass of an ideal gas, the volume and amount (moles) of the gas are directly proportional if the temperature and pressure are constant.

Stick with me, I am a mine of utterly useless information. Now you can get a masters in lesbian dance, Dave you gotta keep up.OH BTW that dumb chit will never do anything with that set up, I am going to light the AK 180 this week. Now that is news.

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Lightning
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Post Sun. Oct. 22, 2017 9:58 pm

Avogadro. Yeah that guy, thanks Simon lol.

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