Central Air W/ Electric Heat Pump

McGiever wrote:take biased personal comments with a grain of salt.

ummmm errrrrr daaaaaaa Maybe I missed the question???? I ASSumed we were chatting about summer dwelling ca-ca -comfort

and if you want fault tolerant off season comfort -- resistance heating [air schorching] and traditional forced air A/C gives the quickest payback and least drama

All that fancy smancy heat pump technology breaches soon after warranty periods and is darn expensive to maintain after 5 years

Oh I forgot -- no personal comments allowed LOL

I have a two zone heat pump. My house is around 3900 sqft. and my house is total electric. The heat pumps are 7 yrs old and I believe they may be 12 seer. My heat stays at 68 and ac 70. Plus outdoor heat tub and 2 kids who will take showers until there is no more hot water left....lol. Enclosed is a pdf of my electric bills for one year. I do have a coal stove but this will be my first winter with it. Personally heat pumps are great until the temps get below 30.

Hi all. I know this is a few months after the last post, but I'd like to chime in on heat pumps. The best and most efficient type out there are the geothermal or ground-source heat pumps. They have a significant up front cost, but the pay back is there if you plan to stay in your home for at least 8 to 10 years, if you are currently burning oil, propane, electric. With new construction, geothermal is the way to go if you are not going to or don't want to burn coal imo. My father in law does well and geothermal drilling, a lot of new construction homeowners are installing geo. The secret to whether or not you are happy with the comfort of your geothermal heated home is whether or not you had a competent hvac tech do the install and that the system was sized properly for the size of home and climate and outdoor design temps and all that good stuff. My in laws also have geo in their newly constructed, 2500 sq ft, central PA home, and their house can be as toasty as they want it, although they keep the thermostat at 72* year round. Their total annual electric bill is approx. 1500.00, and this covers heating and cooling as well as all other electric consumption. Now, if you are looking to install central a/c, I would strongly suggest looking at the heat pump option, whether it be geothermal or air source, because you will be getting a heating option as well as cooling. The heating option is nice for those days that you need some heat, but not cold enough to light the coal up yet. Today's air source heat pumps have made great strides with efficiency, lower outdoor temperature operation, variable-speed compressors and such. We decided on installing a/c on our second floor and chose a Fujitsu mini split ductless heat pump--one outdoor unit, and 2 indoor units. Here are the specs of our system: It is a 2 ton system with a cooling capacity of 22000 btu. The SEER Rating is 18.00 Now the heating capacity is rated at 24,000 BTU at 47* outdoor temperature. The heating capacity drops to 14,100 BTU at 17* outdoor temp and they say it can still operate in heating mode down to the single digits, although the heat output will be limited. The heat rating (HSPF) is 9.50 So far, we are thrilled with the system. It cooled the 2nd floor superbly, with little or no effect on the electric bill. So far it has been piping out plenty of heat when night time temps were in the 20's recently. We shall see how it operates when it gets colder, but I have the Alaska, so I'm not too worried about that. We bought the system primarily for cooling, but the heating option is just a bonus. I guess the whole point of all this is to clarify that yes, heat pumps have had a bad rap in the past, but recent improvements make them a viable option, especially if you are looking to install a central a/c system regardless.

With the more I research anf talk with folks who have these split systems the less I like them. They all say the same thing, they work great but are costly for repairs. They are unsightly and don't evenly distribute as a central duct setup would. I have all the time to think about it some more but Im leaning towards hydronic electric baseboard and a central air setup with an air handler in the attic. Just seems the less head ache way to go.

Yes, I suppose this could be true. There are a bunch of companies jumping on the mini split bandwagon. These systems are the same as coal stoves in that there are a few good brands that normally won't do you wrong, but there are others that people recommend you stay away from. As it pertains to mini splits, the only two brands I would even consider are Fujitsu or Mitsubishi. These are the top two names in this category. They have good warranties and stand behind their products, and if you have a decent hvac tech install it, they will cover the labor as well. My system has a 5 year warranty on parts, 7 years on the compressor. If you have existing duct work, by all means, go with the traditional heat pump or c/a system. The mini splits are designed for those applications where adding new duct work is not feasible, convenient, or cost effective. Mini splits are normally more efficient because they eliminate traditional ducting systems thereby eliminating the losses associated with ducts. The indoor unit is actually the air handler and is where the cool or hot air comes out at. True, the indoor units are unsightly to some, but to me, they are no more unsightly then hydronic radiators, but then again, I don't think radiators are a big deal either. Ultimately, it's personal preference and what fits your needs. If I had existing ducts, I wouldn't have considered mini splits either. As far as repairs on mine, time will tell. Too new to tell. My hvac tech said they only deal with the two names mentioned, because they are typically more reliable and have fewer repair calls. One thing is for sure though. Coal will be my primary source of heat for as long as it is available.

I have the central duct already but I may not use it even tho that sounds crazy. I would have better control with a ceiling mounted air distribution setup Im thinkin. I can have that all installed and ready myself and save a few bucks. I agree with your statement on Brands we looked at both Fujitsu and Mitsubishi and leaned more towards the mitsubishi for warranty reasons.

carlherrnstein wrote:I have been looking at mini split air conditioner/heat pumps they look like a good option for people without ductwork in place.
http://www.amazon.com/s?ie=UTF8&page=1&rh=n%3A261 ... onditioner

Those are becoming very popular but beware. They do not have any 'emergency' heat strips in them so you will need your coal stove when it gets cold.

Anthony,

Old thread, but 2 more cents worth;

Imo, people get caught up in the fact that costs to cool with air/air units is fairly low. That's true, but look at it this way: 100 out, cool house to 70 = 30* difference. Zero out, heat house tot 70 = 70* difference.

You can buy an air to air that'll work at -20F or lower, with no add on elec strip "toaster", but I question the logic of that, due to initial cost. I also question the logic of the "geothermal" systems that many people brag on for the same reason. Although, I must admit that a friend of mine has a not that expensive small [2 ton?] air to air mitsubishi that works to -10F with no resistance backup, no lie. I'm not sure of the SEER #, but it has to be fairly high, in the 16 to 18 range, I suspect. I only heat with imy air to air a few weeks during spring and fall, but my 22 year old york 10 SEER would be on the toaster long before that in cold weather. Fyi, that 3 ton York has cost me a total of $140 for a new condensing unit fan motor over 22 years. Then again, it sits idle for 6 months a year when I'm on my coal boiler.

On ductwork, imo: Ideally, for heating: Low supplies, high returns [works ok for cooling]. Ideally for cooling: High supplies, high returns [does not work well at all for heating]. Realize that if your ductwork is not wrapped, it will likely sweat and drip while cooling, esp if it is in a humid area, like an attic, or an unconditioned basement, or esp a crawl space. You will loose a large amount of BTU out of uninsulated ductwork that's in a non conditioned area imo, esp when heating.

I'm just a dumb tin banger, but on units: I would avoid those that have variable speed [ramping] fan motors, which are troublesome, and very costly to replace. Imo, esp if you will use coal in very cold weather, something in the 15-16 SEER range is the best bang per buck as far as out of pocket money over the life of the unit. Afaik, the very high SEER units will not save you that much when cooling, vs a lower SEER unit.

Dave

p.s. - depending on how old your window units are, even a 13 SEER might save you a little, esp if you can get any rebates.

The whole heat pump idea was back when me and the mrs were debating some options. We decided to through in the towel and install from scratch a boiler system. Air conditioning will be satisified with a larger portable unit, I know its not "efficient" but heating needs and DHW load are more of a priority. Air conditioning is a luxury IMO. We don't live in florida so Im not overly concerned.

Anthony,

I'm far from an expert, but I would bet that newer window units are going to save money, vs an old much less efficient version.

Dave