When is a high efficiency condensing boiler not a high efficiency condensing boiler?

 
User avatar
lsayre
Member
Posts: 21521
Joined: Wed. Nov. 23, 2005 9:17 pm
Location: Ohio
Stoker Coal Boiler: AHS S130 Coal Gun
Coal Size/Type: Lehigh Anthracite Pea
Other Heating: Resistance Boiler (13.5 KW), ComfortMax 75

Post by lsayre » Wed. Jan. 13, 2021 10:26 am

Rob R. wrote:
Wed. Jan. 13, 2021 9:48 am
Those are usually a hard sell with the decorating committee.
Indeed!


 
User avatar
lsayre
Member
Posts: 21521
Joined: Wed. Nov. 23, 2005 9:17 pm
Location: Ohio
Stoker Coal Boiler: AHS S130 Coal Gun
Coal Size/Type: Lehigh Anthracite Pea
Other Heating: Resistance Boiler (13.5 KW), ComfortMax 75

Post by lsayre » Wed. Jan. 13, 2021 10:45 am

Rob R. wrote:
Wed. Jan. 13, 2021 8:54 am
The sheet I was thinking of was for Slant Fin baseboard. You can find it here: https://www.slantfin.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/ ... ta-820.pdf

You would be looking at a sizeable expense to replace all of your baseboard. The 10' section of 958 I just bought was $172, plus $10 each for the endcaps. Perhaps you should consider tightening up your house - that will reduce the overall heat load and allow you to use cooler water.
Rob, I seem to be unable to locate baseboard back plate height reference in the ink you provided. I just may not be understanding what I'm looking at.

First guess would be about $2,850 for all of the pieces/parts.

 
User avatar
Rob R.
Site Moderator
Posts: 15283
Joined: Fri. Dec. 28, 2007 4:26 pm
Location: Chazy, NY
Stoker Coal Boiler: EFM DF520
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Chubby Jr
Coal Size/Type: Lehigh Rice

Post by Rob R. » Wed. Jan. 13, 2021 11:51 am

lsayre wrote:
Wed. Jan. 13, 2021 10:45 am
Rob, I seem to be unable to locate baseboard back plate height reference in the ink you provided. I just may not be understanding what I'm looking at.

First guess would be about $2,850 for all of the pieces/parts.
It is table 2 in the link I provided. Note that they recommend an installed height of 4.5", which most people do not follow. And as you move the baseboard higher the output increases.

Your return on investment would be pretty long if you were trying to pay for it with NG savings. You are probably only looking at a 10% gain during a few months per year. I think you would be a lot further ahead to have a blower door test done on the house, and see where you can inexpensively reduce infiltration, and add insulation.

 
User avatar
lsayre
Member
Posts: 21521
Joined: Wed. Nov. 23, 2005 9:17 pm
Location: Ohio
Stoker Coal Boiler: AHS S130 Coal Gun
Coal Size/Type: Lehigh Anthracite Pea
Other Heating: Resistance Boiler (13.5 KW), ComfortMax 75

Post by lsayre » Wed. Jan. 13, 2021 12:00 pm

Rob R. wrote:
Wed. Jan. 13, 2021 11:51 am
It is table 2 in the link I provided. Note that they recommend an installed height of 4.5", which most people do not follow. And as you move the baseboard higher the output increases.
That appears to be the height from the ground to the bottom of the aluminium fins. Is that also how you see it? And does mounting the back plate 1" off the floor accomplish this?

 
User avatar
lsayre
Member
Posts: 21521
Joined: Wed. Nov. 23, 2005 9:17 pm
Location: Ohio
Stoker Coal Boiler: AHS S130 Coal Gun
Coal Size/Type: Lehigh Anthracite Pea
Other Heating: Resistance Boiler (13.5 KW), ComfortMax 75

Post by lsayre » Wed. Jan. 13, 2021 12:03 pm

Rob R. wrote:
Wed. Jan. 13, 2021 11:51 am
Your return on investment would be pretty long if you were trying to pay for it with NG savings. You are probably only looking at a 10% gain during a few months per year. I think you would be a lot further ahead to have a blower door test done on the house, and see where you can inexpensively reduce infiltration, and add insulation.
Very true, but the existing baseboard covers are pretty beat up, and have been painted over multiple times. And some of the aluminum fins look like they have gone through a war. Preparing the house for the time when it comes to sell it is part of my overall thinking process. The insulation matter is also part of this. We have already began replacing all of the windows. And more attic insulation is being considered. Then doors. Not too long after we bought the house we had foam insulation sprayed into the first floor outdoor walls. Storm doors have already been replaced with new.

When pricing, it seems that replacement baseboard covers without element(s) are nearly as expensive as for with element(s).
Last edited by lsayre on Wed. Jan. 13, 2021 12:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.

 
User avatar
Rob R.
Site Moderator
Posts: 15283
Joined: Fri. Dec. 28, 2007 4:26 pm
Location: Chazy, NY
Stoker Coal Boiler: EFM DF520
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Chubby Jr
Coal Size/Type: Lehigh Rice

Post by Rob R. » Wed. Jan. 13, 2021 12:09 pm

More like 3.5". I think they probably allow some room for carpet, so if you have a low profile floor it is probably less of an issue.

 
User avatar
lsayre
Member
Posts: 21521
Joined: Wed. Nov. 23, 2005 9:17 pm
Location: Ohio
Stoker Coal Boiler: AHS S130 Coal Gun
Coal Size/Type: Lehigh Anthracite Pea
Other Heating: Resistance Boiler (13.5 KW), ComfortMax 75

Post by lsayre » Wed. Jan. 13, 2021 12:13 pm

Rob R. wrote:
Wed. Jan. 13, 2021 12:09 pm
More like 3.5". I think they probably allow some room for carpet, so if you have a low profile floor it is probably less of an issue.
Most rooms upstairs have floors which are a "Pergo" knock-off fake wood, so bare, but 3 of the 4 bedrooms have carpet. The basement floor is dinosaur vinyl tile that needs replaced.


 
User avatar
McGiever
Member
Posts: 9258
Joined: Sun. May. 02, 2010 11:26 pm
Location: Junction of PA-OH-WV
Stoker Coal Boiler: AXEMAN-ANDERSON 130 "1959"
Hand Fed Coal Boiler: BUCKET A DAY water heater
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Warm Morning 414A
Coal Size/Type: RICE,PEA,NUT,STOVE /ANTHRACITE and EGG / BIT
Other Heating: Ground Source Heat Pump and some Solar

Post by McGiever » Wed. Jan. 13, 2021 12:32 pm

Wondering if remove/replace finished basement ceiling to incorporate PEX w/ aluminum plate for kitchen radiant floor may not be cost prohibting. I'd bet the tradesman would see this remove/replace ceiling a huge benifit as for shifting electrical/plumbing to new kitchen layout...

Truly, the radiant addition alone would up the comfort level and asthetics and would add appreciable value...or is this not really all about kitchen???

 
User avatar
Rob R.
Site Moderator
Posts: 15283
Joined: Fri. Dec. 28, 2007 4:26 pm
Location: Chazy, NY
Stoker Coal Boiler: EFM DF520
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Chubby Jr
Coal Size/Type: Lehigh Rice

Post by Rob R. » Wed. Jan. 13, 2021 1:37 pm

Good points. Pulling the ceiling down allows for a lot of other improvements (bracing between joists, foam in wire penetrations, sound deadening insulation, etc). I recently had a bunch of sheetrock work done - it ended up being about $2.25 per sq. ft. That included hanging, taping, and painting (but not the cost of the sheetrock). Local pricing may be different but it should give you a ballpark idea.

 
User avatar
lsayre
Member
Posts: 21521
Joined: Wed. Nov. 23, 2005 9:17 pm
Location: Ohio
Stoker Coal Boiler: AHS S130 Coal Gun
Coal Size/Type: Lehigh Anthracite Pea
Other Heating: Resistance Boiler (13.5 KW), ComfortMax 75

Post by lsayre » Wed. Jan. 13, 2021 3:14 pm

Rob R. wrote:
Wed. Jan. 13, 2021 1:37 pm
Good points. Pulling the ceiling down allows for a lot of other improvements (bracing between joists, foam in wire penetrations, sound deadening insulation, etc). I recently had a bunch of sheetrock work done - it ended up being about $2.25 per sq. ft. That included hanging, taping, and painting (but not the cost of the sheetrock). Local pricing may be different but it should give you a ballpark idea.
I have about 760 sq-ft of finished basement ceiling. The basement is actually a family room.

 
User avatar
Rob R.
Site Moderator
Posts: 15283
Joined: Fri. Dec. 28, 2007 4:26 pm
Location: Chazy, NY
Stoker Coal Boiler: EFM DF520
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Chubby Jr
Coal Size/Type: Lehigh Rice

Post by Rob R. » Wed. Jan. 13, 2021 3:16 pm

If that is all under the kitchen, my hat is off to you.

 
Qtown1835
Member
Posts: 652
Joined: Sat. Nov. 08, 2014 11:47 am
Location: Quakertown, PA
Stoker Coal Boiler: Keystoker '81 KA4 (online 1/16/17)
Coal Size/Type: Lehigh Rice
Other Heating: EFM SPK600

Post by Qtown1835 » Wed. Jan. 13, 2021 3:22 pm

Giant kitchen. Sweet.

 
User avatar
lsayre
Member
Posts: 21521
Joined: Wed. Nov. 23, 2005 9:17 pm
Location: Ohio
Stoker Coal Boiler: AHS S130 Coal Gun
Coal Size/Type: Lehigh Anthracite Pea
Other Heating: Resistance Boiler (13.5 KW), ComfortMax 75

Post by lsayre » Wed. Jan. 13, 2021 6:59 pm

Qtown1835 wrote:
Wed. Jan. 13, 2021 3:22 pm
Giant kitchen. Sweet.
The kitchen is above about 20% of it. The ceiling is stucco paint swirled, and that design is really hard to match up precisely.

 
User avatar
lsayre
Member
Posts: 21521
Joined: Wed. Nov. 23, 2005 9:17 pm
Location: Ohio
Stoker Coal Boiler: AHS S130 Coal Gun
Coal Size/Type: Lehigh Anthracite Pea
Other Heating: Resistance Boiler (13.5 KW), ComfortMax 75

Post by lsayre » Thu. Jan. 14, 2021 5:59 pm

McGiever wrote:
Wed. Jan. 13, 2021 12:32 pm
Wondering if remove/replace finished basement ceiling to incorporate PEX w/ aluminum plate for kitchen radiant floor may not be cost prohibting. I'd bet the tradesman would see this remove/replace ceiling a huge benifit as for shifting electrical/plumbing to new kitchen layout...

Truly, the radiant addition alone would up the comfort level and asthetics and would add appreciable value...or is this not really all about kitchen???
I discussed under-floor radiant via PEX with Karla (my wife) and she is actually excited about considering it for the entire upstairs. But I'm concerned that it may break the bank. Would we retain baseboard heat in the basement and garage?

Am I correct in making a first ballpark assumption that 1,500 Sq-Ft would require 9 to 10 zones with ~300 ft per each of 1/2" PEX? How are estimated BTUH's per Sq-Ft. of floor-space or per Ft. of 1/2" PEX calculated?

The under-sides of our rooms are roughly as follows:
Living = 317 Sq-Ft
Dining = 155 Sq-Ft
Kitchen = 144 Sq-Ft (not counting stairwell to basement, ~30 Sq-FT additional floor space?)
Hallway to Bedrooms/Main Bathroom = 76 Sq-Ft
Bedroom 1 = 152 Sq-Ft
Bedroom 2 = 144 Sq-Ft
Bedroom 3 = 192 Sq-Ft
Main Bathroom = 60 Sq-Ft
Master Bedroom = 225 Sq-Ft
Master Bathroom = 40 Sq-Ft
Floor_Plan.pdf
.PDF | 10.5KB | Floor_Plan.pdf

 
User avatar
lsayre
Member
Posts: 21521
Joined: Wed. Nov. 23, 2005 9:17 pm
Location: Ohio
Stoker Coal Boiler: AHS S130 Coal Gun
Coal Size/Type: Lehigh Anthracite Pea
Other Heating: Resistance Boiler (13.5 KW), ComfortMax 75

Post by lsayre » Thu. Jan. 14, 2021 7:04 pm

If I assume 10 runs of 300 feet of 1/2" PEX and 20 BTUH per foot of 1/2" PEX that comes to 60,000 BTUH. At a nominally "safe" presumption of 'overall' ~80% efficiency when not condensing my NG boiler should output ~64,000 BTUH.

Currently my upstairs has 81 feet of hot water baseboard. 60,000 / 81 = 740 BTUH output required per foot of HWB. The Haydon 958-2's can deliver that with about 170 degree "average" water temperature. My current baseboards require about 205 degree average water temperature for same. Good thing I don't need that many BTUH upstairs.
Last edited by lsayre on Thu. Jan. 14, 2021 8:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.


Post Reply

Return to “Wood, Pellets, Gas, Oil, Geothermal & Other Heating Types”